Joesph hookers watch

[SonnyBurnett]

Ebay has a watch for sale I am skeptical of. As a historian I know it's wrong but it says it's Joseph Hookers watch but cites the case number.  the movement itself is an 1883 PS Bartlett   circa 1898 many years after Hooker died.  how can we identify at least the case as being legitimate?

Hooker died in 1879.

Edited March 6, 2020 by SonnyBurnett
forgot information

[jdm]

Since it's not you sale you can post the link. 

FYI we have a section for discussions about watches. This one is for everything else. 

[oldhippy]

A watch as important as that, I would say it should have provenance. Joseph Hooker is part of American history; I would have thought it would be in a museum. It is OK to post the link as I would like to take a look at it. I think it will be a fake.  

[wls1971]

This must be the watch in question:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Union-Army-General-Joseph-Hookers-1883-Silver-Waltham-pocket-watch-No-Reserve/274297314053?hash=item3fdd64db05:g:xLsAAOSwVqpeYYds

[oldhippy]

This doesn’t convince me. As I have said no provenance. The price convinces me it’s not what the seller is making it out to be.  What the seller has said, you can copy all that off the net. To me it is just a Silver Waltham pocket watch.

[wls1971]

5 hours ago, SonnyBurnett said:

how can we identify at least the case as being legitimate?

You cant no factory records have been found of Fahys watch case serial numbers, I would say the watch has never been owned or worn by Joseph Hooker, the listing does state that the watch has been appraised as being worth $1,650 dollars in 2012 I find that figure odd in itself why not $1,700 or $1,600, it just shows most appraisals are not worth the paper they are written on.

[oldhippy]

Where did you find the appraisal? 

[wls1971]

The listing states it was appraised in 2012, and some of the item photos are from the appraisal.

[oldhippy]

Sill me I did read that. I take that with a pinch salt.  

[FLwatchguy73]

Exact dating of American pocket watch cases is very difficult. There is absolutely no way to ensure the movement and case are original to each other. English silver cases are very simple because they hallmarked everyone made for nearly 400 years. In America, however, makers stamps can help narrow the time frame a bit if you know what to look for. You can run a patent search on that specific model, but that is quite tedious and difficult. Another is to gather a sample of different watches with the same case stamps and compare the time frame of the movements which are easily dated and can be confirmed. If all the movements fall withing a specific window, then you can get a rough estimate of the date of the case. I spent sometime google searching the web looking for Fahys cases with the exact same stamp as the one featured in the auction. I found nearly a dozen with that same stamp. I then dated all the movements and found that NOT one single movement was manufactured before 1883 nor after 1889. Now this does not unequivocally prove the date, but for me, it's telling. I would avoid this watch at all costs! It's provenance is sketchy at best and the numbers absolutely do NOT line up!

[FLwatchguy73]

The same seller is also selling what is purported to be Benjamin Franklin Butler's pocket watch. Just a cursory glance at the stamp on the case shows that it was not likely made before 1900. Butler died in 1893. The movement however dates to 1885, 8 years before his death. Butler was heavily involved in politics and as such likely kept a very busy social life. The purchase of a new watch by a man in his position at the age of 66 is totally plausible. That said, given the fact the seller hasn't sold anything in over a year and couple that with the other sketchy watch, I would avoid this one too, way too many inconsistencies.

[Johnnie]

It's an old watch being sold by an excellent story teller. 

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

All dodgy stuff if you ask me. 

[vinn3]

  the road show and ebay are guilty until proven inocent.  General Hooker - indeed !    vin

[SonnyBurnett]

I collect (and restore) firearms mostly military and mostly vintage and antique.  I do not invest hundreds or even several thousand dollars into a firearm that has no provenance.  Last one I bought was an 1880's Parker double barrel shotgun from R. Lee Ermys gun collection.  I did not buy it until his son Clinton contacted me and said a notarized signed letter would come with it and a Picture of Ermy with the gun with it.  It came and I bought the gun (hangs beautifully above the mantle)

This watch set off every red flag imaginable to me.  Hooker died in 79' the movement is an 83' model and that was huge to me.  I felt it to be a pile of (insert word of choice here).  Thanks guys I figured this was bunk but I'm new to watch repair and to some extent collecting.  I have been buying them almost all my life but just now taking time to know what they are and how fun it is to do this!

I contacted the seller for provenance last night before posting here.  He has yet to return my E-mail.

Simon.

Edited March 6, 2020 by SonnyBurnett

[oldhippy]

I can't wait to read his reply, that's if he gets back to you. 

[FLwatchguy73]

13 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I can't wait to read his reply, that's if he gets back to you. 

Ditto!

[SonnyBurnett]

He hasn't sent anything back yet.  I sent a couple of additional questions.

[oldhippy]

You could take it a step forward and tell the powers that be at ebay, that the seller is ignoring your emails regarding an item he has for sale. You never know the seller might get banned. 

[SonnyBurnett]

On 3/6/2020 at 5:43 PM, oldhippy said:

I can't wait to read his reply, that's if he gets back to you. 

He replied back to all questions with the same response each time.

 

"Good Afternoon, Sorry for the slow response I am traveling this weekend. Thank you for the inquiry. This watch came out of a collection owned by an archaeologist and collector. He passed away last year and now his wife is selling off some of his collection which is extensive. I have an appraisal from 2012 with an appraisal number. This is not my expertise so that’s why I started the auction at no reserve. Hopefully this helps. All the best!"

[oldhippy]

Nice story. He needed time to think that one up. So what is the appraisal and from whom is it from.