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Pocket Watch Movement Problem??


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Hi there,Can anyone help me with a problem I have with an English Lever Movement.I thought that the mainspring had broken but on investigation that was all ok so I decided to take the movement apart and look further into this problem and while apart I decided to clean everything before reassembly and oiling.Under the top plate there is a sprung lever assembly that is held against the center wheel pinion and when I try to wind the mainspring up all of a sudden the pinions disengage and all power in the mainspring is lost??Has anyone any thoughts or ideas on my little problem,any help would be gratefully received.I enclose a photo of this lever/spring assembly under the top plate that connects with the center wheel pinion.Regards,Seth.

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Hi there,The only photos I took of the movement before I took it to pieces are of where the position of the banking pins were as they are adjustable and of the balance assembly as you will see that the small bracket that the hairspring is pinned to was broken through and if you look at my original photo of the lever assembly you will see that the screw that holds the hairspring stud/bracket was broken in the hole and someone had tried to dig it out.So I purchased a Bergeon Screw Removal Tool and bits from Cousins and finally got the screw out.

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Hi there,Firstly many thanks for your replies,I have not seen "Reversing Pinion" on it anywhere.Your RED ARROW on my photo is only on the pivot for the large brass pinion wheel that is shown.The mainspring barrel goes into the large cutout and the teeth on the barrel engage with the pinion wheel shown which in turn engages with the small pinion on the center wheel shaft.If you look at my photo the screw which is almost hidden by the pinion wheel is in a slot on this brass "L" shaped lever which is pivoted by the screw at the bottom of the lever.At the top and its half hidden is a polished steel spring which rests on the lever keeping it under tension.If the lever and pinion assembly is not engaged with the center wheel pinion then you cannot wind the mainspring.If the lever and pinion assembly is engaged with the center wheel pinion then you can wind the mainspring but the movement is SOLID and will not move. If the pinion assembly is disengaged from the center wheel and no power on the mainspring then the train is FREE and can be turned with tweezers.Hope this helps as I have 2 more movements exactly the same mechanism which I got from Ebay for spares.Regards,Seth.

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This looks like it may be a reversing pinion movement. The English developed this system because people were used to fusee movements which wind counterclockwise. This mechanism gave them the opportunity to wind in either direction. Do you have photos of the other two movements assembled? I can confirm by those. Thank you.

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Hi there, I will take some photos of the other two movements tomorrow when I'm back in my little workshop where I spend a lot of my retirement time and post the photos on here if that's okay with you.Regards,Seth.

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7 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

could that spring screwed on be  upside down?    vin

I was thinking that was a possibility. I'm tempted to purchase one of these movements and learn what it's all about, very intriguing concept..

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Hi there ,As promised I have taken a few photos of the movements the first is the two movements side by side,2 is the back of the movement,3 is a view looking at this lever assembly with the pinion engaged with the center wheel pinion,4 is another view of this lever assembly,5 is a view of the top plate with all the wheels and escapement lever in position so you can see how this lever assembly with the pinion engages with the center wheel pinion,the mainspring barrel teeth then engage with this pinion/lever assembly,6this is a view of the lever removed from the top plate and you can see the detent spring which I have left in position on the plate.Hope this is of help,Regards Seth.

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First off, thank you for the photos @Seth. So yes, this is definitely a reversing pinion movement. As far as the specifics of the reversing mechanism, I'm unsure, But my curiosity is piqued, I'm going to get one for myself, just so I can figure it out and perhaps learn how to help you as well. It looks as if H.Samuel is still in business, over 150 years. Impressive

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Hi there, Many thanks for your help and reply I have looked at my copies of Daniels Watchmaking and F W Britain's Watch and Clockmaker's Handbook and there is nothing about this reversing pinion in either.I have my late grandfather's H Samuel pocket watch and that's running fine I have just opened the silver case and looked at the movement after taking the dustcover off and that's the same movement with the same setup.All I have had to do to this watch was fit a replacement acrylic crystal as the original glass was cracked.I enclose a photo of this watch taken just before this email.Will look forward to hearing from you in the future Regards,Seth.

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Hi there to all, Further to my little problem regarding this "Reversing Pinion Assembly" I have received some very interesting information from another watchrepairer here in the UK and he enclosed a copy of the original patent application for this assembly which I am enclosing for your information.Regards to all,Seth.

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  • 2 weeks later...

After much curiosity and homework on this matter, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a nice example of similar watch. It was originally sold by the same company (H Samuel) and appears to be of the same time period. Mine does say "Climax Trip Action Patent" I'm fairly certain it has an identical mechanism as @Seth's. Though it does sound a bit naughty, lol. Unfortunately no pictures of the movement, but I googled "Climax Trip Action Patent" and the last picture is the result, which looks promising. I will update when mine arrives from the UK and I've had a chance to disassemble it and inspect the mechanism.

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Good evening folks. The first of 2 H. Samuel watches I purchased arrived today. On the surface, this one seemed identical to the OPs but after tearing it down I discovered it was not the same. This one has a safety pinion just like American pocket watches do. And as it turned out, it needed it. The mainspring was busted and had tripped the pinion. This one does have an extra gear, so at first glance it appears the same as @Seth's, unfortunately not. I'm still trying to decipher it's purpose, my first guess is it allows the watch to be wound counter clockwise. I do want to source a replacement mainspring, so if anyone has some researched a replacement for one similar or has one, please let me know. I will be reassembling this and if I can get it ticking with pressure on the barrel, I'll share more photos.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

Good evening folks. @Seth my new watch arrived today, and I think I may have solved your problem. In the picture below, the arm that i outlined in red needs to slide over in the direction of the Green arrow, where it is currently in the picture is the "tripped" position and therefore the gear does not engage the center wheel pinion. This is apart of that safety mechanism we were discussing. In the video, you can see it in action.

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Here is the video of the action

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    • Polish it where the old part cracked as well. Get rid of the stress-raisers.
    • Sounds great! And yes, I would use grease for the keyless as well although treating the parts with epilame would make the grease less likely to spread in the long run. Not critical but won’t hurt. My current strategy is to epilame treat all parts getting in contact with oil or grease.
    • Hello everyone, for what it's worth, here is my approach: 1. Escape wheel submerged in Epilame, then dried quickly with a hairdryer. Then the final tip of the pivots are cleaned by poking into pithwood. The logic being that the Epilame is removed at the intended contact point (to avoid any residue that may mix with the oil), but remains in the areas where oil is not supposed to spread to (further down the pivot towards the wheel). The escape wheel teeth also benefit from having Epilame to keep the 9415 in place.  2. I use a syringe to treat only the pallet stones. I suspend the pallet fork with some Rodico so that the stones hang downwards. I notably use a rather thick needle where a drop WON'T form, but rather where the Epilame liquid stays in the needle tip, which I then dip into the pallet stones. It requires some practice to get the right amount of Epilame into the needle tip, but it works for me now. This way, no drop will "jump" onto the pallet fork and potentially go all the way to the pivots.  3. I let the movement run for a few minutes without lubricating the pallet stones... to scrape off the Epilame in the intended contact "channel". Then I remove the balance again and lubricate the exit pallet stone with 3-4 successive drops. See the "channel" that forms on the pallet stone in the picture -- not so easy to see, but it's visible.       I am conflicted about the use of Epliame in balance jewel settings. My impression is that the two jewels sufficiently suspend the oil (even 9010). Apparently Rolex recommends NOT to use Epliame there (heard from a former Rolex service center watchmaker), as it could cause additional wear. Apart from that, I follow specific instructions where I can find them. E.g. the infamous Rolex reverser wheels or sometimes (parts of) the seconds wheel. Exception: I'm currently servicing an Eta 2824 and will probably ignore the service sheet that recommends treating the whole keyless works with Epilame and then using HP1300... I'll skip the Epilame and use 9504 grease.        
    • I'm going to give this a try today/tomorrow on my UTC33/Seiko 66, thanks!
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