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I think he has a great idea and I love what they are doing to the Seiko's. Homage watches are great.  When you use someone's name without there permission that is a problem.  I would hate to have someone put my name on there product.

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I think the distinction between Fake, Replica and Homage watches needs to be discussed here. I think it's clear the OP desires an Homage above all else.There is an entire cottage industry devoted to m

Some of the custom dial designs I posted are most certainly homage, since the original manufacturer did not produce anything similar (although other manufacturers did).   This for examp

Can we resolve the ethical issue if I put "Bolex" on it in the Rolex font, (Brando + Rolex). It will get someone from a distance who knows watches to engage in a conversation but when they actually lo

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17 minutes ago, markr said:

I think he has a great idea and I love what they are doing to the Seiko's. Homage watches are great.  When you use someone's name without there permission that is a problem.  I would hate to have someone put my name on there product.

I competition agree! Although, to be honest.. I'm not sure I'd put my own name on a watch. :D

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Some of the custom dial designs I posted are most certainly homage, since the original manufacturer did not produce anything similar (although other manufacturers did).

CheVer1.0-30.100Centre1.79RoundRedStarsC

 

This for example.

I guess the issue really boils down to motive, and if the motive is to create a fake, and pass it off as the real thing, in order to con someone in to parting with the value of the real item, then there is a problem.

th?id=OIP.K1QntV1TpG_Aes5C_WrxmwHaGH%26p

There is a fine line between what is art, and what is not. Even the use of trademarks is legitimate if the result is unique and interesting as Mr Warhol demonstrated. It may not be to your tastes and may in fact annoy you, but motive is everything here. 

Edited by AndyHull
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Plus, Andy Warhol never cast a negative light on the Campbell's brand, quite the opposite. 

"The Campbell Soup Co.'s embrace ofWarhol's iconic imagery is a switch from its initial reaction in 1962, when the company considered taking legal action. ... By 1964, however, the company realized the paintings were becoming a phenomenon and embraced the depictions. Campbell's marketing manager even sent Warhol a letter expressing admiration for his work and sent him a couple of cases of tomato soup. Later that year, Campbell commissioned Warhol to do a painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soupas a gift for retiring board chairman Oliver G.Willits; Warhol was paid $2,000 for the work." excerpt from Newsday article Aug 29, 2012

Homages honor something meaningful and iconic and should be encouraged. 

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Can we resolve the ethical issue if I put "Bolex" on it in the Rolex font, (Brando + Rolex). It will get someone from a distance who knows watches to engage in a conversation but when they actually look at it I have to explain quickly what it is about.

Deal?

 

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5 hours ago, FLwatchguy73 said:

Plus, Andy Warhol never cast a negative light on the Campbell's brand, quite the opposite. 

"The Campbell Soup Co.'s embrace ofWarhol's iconic imagery is a switch from its initial reaction in 1962, when the company considered taking legal action. ... By 1964, however, the company realized the paintings were becoming a phenomenon and embraced the depictions. Campbell's marketing manager even sent Warhol a letter expressing admiration for his work and sent him a couple of cases of tomato soup. Later that year, Campbell commissioned Warhol to do a painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soupas a gift for retiring board chairman Oliver G.Willits; Warhol was paid $2,000 for the work." excerpt from Newsday article Aug 29, 2012

Homages honor something meaningful and iconic and should be encouraged. 

24 minutes ago, adamb11 said:

Can we resolve the ethical issue if I put "Bolex" on it in the Rolex font, (Brando + Rolex). It will get someone from a distance who knows watches to engage in a conversation but when they actually look at it I have to explain quickly what it is about.

Deal?

Great idea. Talking about movie watches does anyone know what Timex Fonda throws away in the beginning of Easy Rider.

I think he has a great idea and I love what they are doing to the Seiko's. Homage watches are great.  When you use someone's name without there permission that is a problem.  I would hate to have someone put my name on there product.

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5 hours ago, FLwatchguy73 said:

Plus, Andy Warhol never cast a negative light on the Campbell's brand, quite the opposite. 

"The Campbell Soup Co.'s embrace ofWarhol's iconic imagery is a switch from its initial reaction in 1962, when the company considered taking legal action. ... By 1964, however, the company realized the paintings were becoming a phenomenon and embraced the depictions. Campbell's marketing manager even sent Warhol a letter expressing admiration for his work and sent him a couple of cases of tomato soup. Later that year, Campbell commissioned Warhol to do a painting of a can of Campbell's tomato soupas a gift for retiring board chairman Oliver G.Willits; Warhol was paid $2,000 for the work." excerpt from Newsday article Aug 29, 2012

Homages honor something meaningful and iconic and should be encouraged. 

 

6 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Some of the custom dial designs I posted are most certainly homage, since the original manufacturer did not produce anything similar (although other manufacturers did).

CheVer1.0-30.100Centre1.79RoundRedStarsC

 

This for example.

I guess the issue really boils down to motive, and if the motive is to create a fake, and pass it off as the real thing, in order to con someone in to parting with the value of the real item, then there is a problem.

th?id=OIP.K1QntV1TpG_Aes5C_WrxmwHaGH%26p

There is a fine line between what is art, and what is not. Even the use of trademarks is legitimate if the result is unique and interesting as Mr Warhol demonstrated. It may not be to your tastes and may in fact annoy you, but motive is everything here. 

Not the same argument. Andy didn't make soup put it in a can and put a Campbell's label on it.

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33 minutes ago, adamb11 said:

Can we resolve the ethical issue if I put "Bolex" on it in the Rolex font, (Brando + Rolex). It will get someone from a distance who knows watches to engage in a conversation but when they actually look at it I have to explain quickly what it is about.

Deal?

 

Great idea.

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1 minute ago, markr said:

Andy didn't make soup put it in a can and put a Campbell's label on it.

True, but he did take existing artwork, and "adapt" it to fit his artistic needs.

The argument is roughly one of "fair use".

If I make a drawing of a Porsche, that is fine, if I build myself a kit car that looks like a Porsche, that is also fine, but if I set up a dealership selling Porchee cars that are a knockoff of the 911, then that is not fine.

Likewise if I mess around producing something that is designed to amuse myself, and I have no intention of passing it off as legitimate, then I can play with an existing design, or mimic some features of that design.

The idea of Fair use is summed up in the statement that fair use,  permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. This is the case with the "prop" Rolex, and my "the kitsch  Luch, that  Luch might have designed ersatz USSR icon" dials. If I were to attempt to sell or even pass of as genuine, my design, then I would be in legal hot water.  It is not the act of making the homage, that is the problem, it is any attempt to use the good name and reputation of the original for profit or personal gain, without permission that is the issue.

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As a little bit of an aside, if my design were to show up on watches that some 3rd party was passing off as legitimate Luch watches, then not only Luch, but also yours truly, could go after them, since I have actually taken the trouble to indicate the nature of what I would consider acceptable use of my design.

88x31.png

Attribution-ShareAlike
CC BY-SA

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/

If they use these designs and try to pass them off as genuine Luch, then they have not only attempted to rip off Luch, but also failed to comply with the terms of my licensing too, since they have failed to credit me with creating the design, per the terms of that license.

The Luch logo I used is released into the public domain under the terms below, and therefore I can legitimately claim that my derivative work does not infringe the terms of the copyright holder. This would not be a problem anyway since I am using it for personal use only, but even if there were an argument that I should not be doing so, fair use, and the following statement both apply.

I, the copyright holder of this work, release this work into the public domain. This applies worldwide.
In some countries this may not be legally possible; if so:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose
, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

Compare with the terms of use of the Rolex logo (also available on Wikipedia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rolex_logo.svg

This states....

Use of the logo in the article complies with Wikipedia non-free content policy, logo guidelines, and fair use under United States copyright law as described above.

Note the term "Fair Use" in that statement. You can use it, but strictly within the terms of fair use, so you can make the watch, with the logo, wear the watch with the logo, but you can't sell the watch, except perhaps as an art piece, with strict limitations on its re-distribution under the same terms. You cannot in any way represent it as genuine or OEM Rolex.

 

Edited by AndyHull
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In line with Andy's statement, are all the t-shirt (among the many other items that use his likeness) manufacturers licensing Che's likeness? Does his family get a cut? For that matter, does Albert Einstein's estate get the same whenever his likeness is used? I bet not. You want to know who's is? Bob Ross! His estate has strict control over his name and likeness. They have full approval over all and they get a cut of all merchandise. Very wise and financially beneficial. 

 

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Che's a communist.  There would be some serious hypocrisy if he tried to make money off his t-shirts.  By definition (if alive) he would have to let people profit off his likeness, not himself. They woudl of course do great thus building a t-shirt empire with an unfair compensation structure.  He would eventually not be able to stand by and watch this injustice. Che would infiltrate the worker community and start a union.  There would be resistance from leadership resulting in a violent overthrow.  The new leadership would then run the company successfully for a little bit.  Workers would eventually be disillusioned with Che's promise of a t-shirt paradise. "Why does everyone get the same pay no matter how talented or hard working they are?"  Productivity would drop dramatically to where they begin to organize again, but this time under one charismatic leader.  Thsi leader wants to restore the t-shirt company to its former glory, and this can only be done if he has absolute power.

This new leader selects individuals who were strong in the previous regime and has them executed, Che included.  The Fascist leader then starts rounding up the Chinese sub contractors and putting them in breakrooms that are inadequately stocked with snacks. The TV in the break room only plays reruns of the Mary Tyler Moore show which drives many to suicide.  This outrages that international community, yet few take action to help.

 

My point is that your Che t-shirt argument falls apart pretty quickly when you think about it for a moment.

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Che would have fought for those t shirt profits just the same, no matter what he intended on doing with the money. That was more the point of my comment. Communism is a mess, no doubt, lol.

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  • 3 months later...

I'm getting back to this project. I decided tht I want to include as many real Rolex parts as I can get my hands on.  Also over time I can replace non authentic parts with real ones as I find them.  I decided that I definetly want a eal patina GMT dial to start. I see the Master series I are very expensive but teh Master II's are in the <$500 range with damage.  Any guidelines for identifying fake dials vs real?  Posts in the back and their location?  markings on the back of the dial?  Features on front?  for example what are the correct time periods for "T<25"  vs "Swiss Made" at the base?

Are the Master I dials all with circle markers that are not outlined in metal and the Master II has the silver outlined markers? ( I don't think they are called nipples unless they protrude.

Thanks,

Adam

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On 6/20/2020 at 3:32 PM, adamb11 said:

Was it really done this way.

Compare with as many similar genuine dials as you can find. The lettering is pad printed, so there should be no variation in font, weight, position, colour or whatever, compared to a genuine comparable dial.

If you see a dial that is in Comic sans font, it is a fake. If the lettering is uneven, it is a fake, if the lettering is thin and weak looking, or it has a raster pattern in it from laser or inkjet printing, it is a fake. If the colour is wrong, it is probably a fake, if the finish looks uneven, or cheap, it is a fake. If the centring is off, it is fake. If you get a bad feeling about it, walk away, it is probably fake. Genuine dials should look the part. High quality and well made. Anything else.. bin it.

Edited by AndyHull
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  • 3 weeks later...
Just to educate me a bit.  The GMT hand is not on the same post as the regular hour hand. This is so it can be adjusted to the secondary time zone.  This means it is driven by the same hour gear set but is clutched somehow so it can be set by a different position on the stem?
When I see movements that say "GTM" but only show a normal hour and minute hand set can I assume there is a place for the GMT hand?  If so why wouldn't they include or show that hand as well?
Thanks,
Adam
 

I just saw this and probably am late. But for information. There two types of gmt movements in reps. One with independent gmt hand and one that gmt hand is basically for show moves with the hour and minute hands.

6460, 2836(modded) 3804 are independent gmt hands and can be adjusted. However if you lets say talk about rolex there super clone movements that have same function as gens that is independent (jumping hour hand) and so you can monitor 3 time zones with the use of bezel and 2 time zones without the use of bezel. Hope this helps
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How about a fake Patek Philippe?

My Facebook page is bombed out with fake Omega, Rolex et al. You would think FB would have some responsibility in ensuring they did not facilitate these sorts of ads. These are FB sponsored ads which a lot of people might take at face value. As it happens you rarely get the watch that is in the pic, more likely some piece of useless plastic junk.

https://yelygiaogiao.com/products/limited-edition-designer-watch?fbclid=IwAR0LjZ7zFIuLtNWde5qXB-y5c5R4z-tot0b7kKg_YzzDQo9cVpraWAX9D1w

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