Can anyone date this watch please?

[Frankm]

Hi, I found this fusee verge watch in scattered pieces in a box of parts bought from a local market. I have reassembled as much as I can and would really like to know how old it is? The only information I have is the makers name, Thomas Collins of London. Any help would be appreciated. 

Frank

[AndyHull]

Thomas Collins is a relatively common name, but a little googling has so far provided one possible candidate.

Thomas Collins, late of Soham, in the county of Cambridge,Watch and Clock Maker, Jeweller, &c. an Insolvent,No. 61,194 C.;
Source -> https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/20171/page/3531/data.pdf

.. of course Cambridge isn't London, so this may be a red herring.

There may be another candidate here (this is a paid service, which I cannot vouch for)-> https://www.clockswatches.com/showindex_c.php

I'm sure that some of the pocket watch experts will be able to give you a rough date for the manufacture of this piece.
I love the ornate carving and fret work. Nice find.  Does it have a dial?

Edited February 10, 2020 by AndyHull

[FLwatchguy73]

With certainty this is a late 18th century Verge Fusee movement. The ornately engraved, pierced balance cock is typical of this time. The regulator type is common to later 1700's to very early 1800's.  It looks as if the balance is installed incorrectly as it should sit centered under the cock. Do you have more photos of this? Are you aware if any parts are missing or broken? Watchmaking in England during this time was very much a cottage industry. There was absolutely NO standardization of parts until the Americans introduced it in the mid 1800's. It will be tough if not impossible to find drop in, replacement parts if you want to get this running. There are very talented watchmakers who can hand fabricate any part you need, but they aren't cheap! As far as the watchmaker who made this, that's a very difficult one, there are online records available that you can research, but there is a paid membership required to access them in a few places.

A dark fact about watches from this period, children were employed to perform all of the engravings you find on these watches. They had better eyes and steadier hands.

https://www.clockswatches.com/showindex_c.php

Edited February 10, 2020 by FLwatchguy73

[FLwatchguy73]

8 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Thomas Collins is a relatively common name, but a little googling has so far provided one possible candidate.

Thomas Collins, late of Soham, in the county of Cambridge,Watch and Clock Maker, Jeweller, &c. an Insolvent,No. 61,194 C.;
Source -> https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/20171/page/3531/data.pdf

.. of course Cambridge isn't London, so this may be a red herring.

There may be another candidate here (this is a paid service, which I cannot vouch for)-> https://www.clockswatches.com/showindex_c.php

I'm sure that some of the pocket watch experts will be able to give you a rough date for the manufacture of this piece.
I love the ornate carving and fret work. Nice find.  Does it have a dial?

He went bankrupt, very typical of the time.

[FLwatchguy73]

As a coincidence, I happened to be carrying my oldest English pocket watch. It is from 1827. It was made by John Nichols. I was able to confirm this by the silver hallmarks on the case and research I did on the maker and the design of the watch, though thiese watches were often re-cased and it doesn't always apply. Other methods to roughly date these watches is by the type of escapement. The watch above has a Verge escapement, as did nearly every single watch from the 1500's until the very early 1800's. My watch has an early English lever escapement invented by a watchmaker named Edward Massey, mine being the third and more common revision. The Massey lever was used from 1820-1845. 

Fusee watches were the dominant portable watch mechanisms for nearly 300 years until the Americans perfected the "Going barrel" gear train in the 1850's. Fusee movements are more delicate and were subject to catastrophic failures if the mainspring or fusee chain broke. The Americans mitigated spring breakage by inventing the "Safety Pinion". A pinion attached to the center wheel that would intentionally unscrew itself to absorb the shock and prevent it from transmitting into the gear train. This pinion could be easily reset by the watchmaker when he replaced the mainspring.

Among the ways to narrow down the age of English fusee watches include, but are not limited to:

1. the design and shape of the balance cock,
2. the type and quantity of engravings,
3. the type of regulator,
4. the type of escapement,
5. whether or not it has a sub-seconds dial,
6. whether or not it has a jeweled gear train,
7. if it has a compensated or uncompensated balance,
8. support pillar shape
9. and the silver case hallmarks.

By the late 1800's, American watchmakers had become so successful the English had abandoned Fusee movements for going barrel movements. In fact, there was a whole industry dedicated to copying american watches. Today, some people collect just the ornate balance cocks because they are so beautifully engraved, each one telling a different story, with faces, animals and flowers being common motifs.

@Frankm, you have a very handsome watch, hopefully you have enough parts to get it running again. Would be awesome to get a 200 year old watch running.

Below is my 1827 Fusee, can you spot some of the date specific features of it?

Date hint #1 No sub-seconds dial

Date Hint #2, Silver Hallmarks

Date hint #3 Dust cover and balance cock shape

Date hint #4 and #5, uncompensated balance and watchmakers name and location

Date hint #6 and #7 Escapement type and pillar shape

Here is a view of the Fusee chain wrapped around the Fusee cone

 

[Nucejoe]

OH can.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Nucejoe
Apearnatly Florida already has.

[jdm]

Great topic, info, and pictures, thanks to all who have or will post. 

[FLwatchguy73]

Another thing the Americans contributed to watchmaking, consistent and accurate serialization and record keeping. You can date nearly any american pocket watch from the 1850's on because of this fact. www.pocketwatchdatabase.com is a fantastic resource and community of collectors of American pocket watches. Check it out. 

[Frankm]

Thanks for the replies so far. Unfortunately there are some parts missing  remember this was just a pile of parts mixed up with other bits. The fusee chain is intact but I haven't installed it as it is missing the barrel ratchet. I particularly like the face engraved on the balance cock. I may put it in the tank and give it a good clean.

[FLwatchguy73]

Honestly, it appears nearly everything you need is present you're just missing the ratchet wheel, hairspring and you would need to determine which balance staff is the correct length and if the flags are intact and someone with the experience to properly install the staff. I've installed fusee chains before, they're tricky, but not impossible. Another quirk of fusee watches, because of the fusee chain and cone and how they are assembled, fusee watches wind counterclockwise compared to going barrel gear trains that wind clockwise. The fuse cones have a ratchet mechanism built into the inside making them a one way mechanism. If someone has wound the watch in the wrong direction, this ratchet mechanism will break rendering it useless. I have repaired this damage on one of mine, but it was very tricky to accomplish.

[Frankm]

Thanks, I have an English fusee lever dated 1853 that is wound but not running. I need some more practice on fusee movements before I tackle this one..

[FLwatchguy73]

If nothing is broken, it probably just needs a good cleaning. If the balance isn't swinging it could be overbanked. Most English levers employed a sideways lever that were prone to overbanking. American pocket watches began with that type of lever and later adopted a pallet similar to the swiss style pallet. All of this was long before the invention of the double roller which further reduced overbanking.