Cleaning Fluids

[Springster]

Hi All

First time here and an "old timer" very new to watch movement cleaning, etc.  I'm fascinated with this "mechanical surgery" known as watch repair and my question is which cleaner will work the best for a beginner with no cleaning machine and very little experience in this venture.  I'm not sure how involved I wish to become with this fascinating skill, but with a few cheap mechanical watches acquired on EBay, I'm ready to disassemble and see what happens.  I have some basic tools I purchased, but which cleaner would work better as an overall cleaner; denatured alcohol, white gas, coleman lantern fuel, or naphtha lighter fluid?  Which if any might damage the pallet fork or other parts? Thanks for all the help and advise.

[watchweasol]

Hi all the ones you mentioned will work also Isopropyl Alchol (IPA) available on the net or at the chemist.  I use carburetter cleaner or brake cleaner as the initial de greaser and finish with the IPA. I should have a look on this sire using the search box as the subject has been covered many times, and everybody has their own prefered method and cleaner. Its a case of reading whats been written and choose what you think suits your purpose.

[saswatch88]

Don’t use alcohol on pallets and balance if you do just dip then dry, but it’s good for a final rinse. A dry cleaner which is used for electrical is best for balance and fork it’s safe on shellac. For cleaning I like naphtha just make sure you dry it quickly preferably with heated air like a blow dryer it will leave less residue. Get some pegwood and nylon brushes to do some hand cleaning. Also rodico is a must have for cleaning pinions wheels and sopping up excess oil.

[Deggsie]

Hi all. Are there any components that is should not put into ammoniated watch solution? I’m going to do my first clean using Elma WP Pro today, which judging by the smell of it, it is definitely ammoniated.

 

Regards Deggsie

 

 

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[jdm]

Main use of ammonia is to remove oxidation from brass and some plated parts, so they shine. If you don't need that, there is no benefit benefit and you can just use refined naptha and then IPA. In any case be cautious with the stuff because it had been reported to do permanent damage in some cases.. 

[nickelsilver]

Ammonia is a good cleaning agent, with the added benefit as said by jdm that it brightens brass. It has been linked to stress cracks in brass, primarily antique clocks; it seems not to be an issue in watches. As with anything the concentration level and time spent in are big factors, I remember a student forgetting a watch in the cleaning machine at school over a weekend and all the plating was gone and the brass parts visibly pitted.

One sees movements that have likely been serviced a dozen times in the past with similar etching of parts and plating.

Bottom line is it's a traditional and effective part of many cleaning formulas. I use one that is lightly ammoniated, and a clock solution where the ammonia content combines with oleic acid to form a soap that is very gentle to even old brass.

Biggest issue is probably whether you can stand the odor, as stonger solutions can be quite pungent.

[Deggsie]

Thanks for the good advise. I intend to decant a small quantity from the container into a small glass jam jar with air tight lid. I will do this in my well vented garage where the solution will be stored

 

Parts will then be placed into mesh baskets, put into the jam jar and then lid on tight. Then the jars stood in a Luke warm ultrasonic bath of water ensuring leak path isn’t submerged. 5 minutes in the ultrasonic? Then the same process for the fine rinse ultrasonic for 3 minutes ? Does that sound about right?

 

Regards

Darren

 

 

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[Deggsie]

Should add, I will do the ultrasonic part indoors, on the hob top with the fume extractor on

 

 

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[rduckwor]

The only time fumes will be an issue is when the jar is opened.  I use L&R 566 which is labeled non-ammoniated, BUT it does contain ethanolamine which stinks like ammonia.  I typically run the cleaner jar in the buzz box for 15" and then two L&R rinses for 5" each.  I still have to clean some jewels manually and then rinse again. 

 

Good Luck,

RMD

[Deggsie]

The Elma WP pro solution smells like brasso but 100x stronger. I recon if you accidentally spilled the bottle even in an open space it would be very dangerous if not lethal


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[VWatchie]

I got myself a used ELMA as well (manufactured 1952) with replaced wiring for about $150. It saves a lot of time and the cleaning result is good enough and makes all brass parts look really shiny. I still inspect all critical parts (jewel bearings, pivots, etc.) under strong magnification before reassembling and when needed I do some manual cleaning as well, like pegging out jewel bearings and removing rust and corrosion.

I use ELMA RED 9:1 for cleaning (5 min), deionized water for first rinse (1-2 minutes), and ELMA Suprol Pro (1-2 min) for the final rinse. Then into the heating chamber for about 5-10 minutes. Since these solutions are water based it's important to minimize the cleaning time. I tried with 10-15 minutes in each container (total 40-45 minutes) and the parts developed some rust and strange looking spots that I fortunately was able to remove manually using vinegar essence (12%) and IPA (Never again!)

[jdrichard]

I was wondering if lighter fluid will effect shellac if you use it to clean a Hairspring by putting the complete balance cock and balance in lighter fluid for a swim?

 

 

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[watchweasol]

Hi JD    it will be ok  as long as its only a moment and the dipped in ISopropyl and dried, a lenghty soak will cause problems for sure.

[oldhippy]

I always used Ronsonol lighter fluid, It wont harm shellac. Best if you have a pot with a screw lid as it evaporates very quick. You can leave the complete balance in it for days and it will not come to any harm. 

[Nucejoe]

No need to soak for a long time, you get a clean hairspring in matter of hours ,ten to fifteen hrs. I have used lighter fluid eversince OH told about it and had no issue with the shellac.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, jdrichard said:

 

I was wondering if lighter fluid will effect shellac if you use it to clean a Hairspring by putting the complete balance cock and balance in lighter fluid for a swim?

Have a look to our comprehensive topic below  about cleaning products.

Consider that lighter fluid  it's not an horological product. It contains perfumes and oils. It is formulated to burn not not clean, it's usage is just largely traditional from the old time when nothing better was available In its place you can use petroleoum ether (refinen naptha) which is actually even cheaper.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by jdm

[vinn3]

6 hours ago, jdrichard said:

 

I was wondering if lighter fluid will effect shellac if you use it to clean a Hairspring by putting the complete balance cock and balance in lighter fluid for a swim?

 

 

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     there should be no sheilac on the spring.,but  why not clean with isopropyl alcohol ,, it's cheaper and better?  vin

[jdrichard]

     there should be no sheilac on the spring.,but  why not clean with isopropyl alcohol ,, it's cheaper and better?  vin

Shellac is for the roller jewel and I am concerned that if I completely bathe the balance, hairspring and all in lighter fluid, the shellac would be degraded.


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[HectorLooi]

Shellac is completely safe in lighter fluid. Isopropyl alcohol is a solvent for shellac. Probably safe if you dip it in for a few seconds and dry it off. But don't leave it in for long periods.

Certain ultrasonic cleaning solutions can also dissolve shellac. Especially those that contain ammonium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. I can testify to that.

[HectorLooi]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

Consider that lighter fluid  it's not an horological product. It contains perfumes and oils. It is formulated to burn not not clean 

Further thoughts on lighter fluid. The stuff is so cheap that I don't think the manufacturers are putting any extra stuff in it.

But you can conduct an easy test to see if the stuff you have is pure. Just put a drop of it on a clean piece of glass and let it evaporate. If it leaves any marks on the glass, it probably has other stuff in it. I use Ronsonol and Zippo. The cell phone repair shops here use it as the final clean before sticking on a screen protector. So I think it should be quite pure.

[jdm]

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Further thoughts on lighter fluid. The stuff is so cheap that I don't think the manufacturers are putting any extra stuff in it.

But you can conduct an easy test to see if the stuff you have is pure. Just put a drop of it on a clean piece of glass and let it evaporate. If it leaves any marks on the glass, it probably has other stuff in it. I use Ronsonol and Zippo. The cell phone repair shops here use it as the final clean before sticking on a screen protector. So I think it should be quite pure.

If you think lighter guild is cheap, try to compare its price per liter or gallon to automotive fuel, to which in the end is quite similar. However to each one his own thinking. Some even like to use the expensive “one dip“ solution, which is not much different from hexane, available at the pharmacy. 

Also I suppose your phone repair has never heard of Isopropyl Alcohol, which is pretty much the universal cleaner for electronic work. But as mentioned about a million times here it is not 100 safe for shellac. 

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Isopropyl alcohol is a solvent for shellac

 

Is there more than one version of isopropyl alcohol?

So conveniently I can't go to work to photograph the can but the last rinse in our cleaning machine is isopropyl alcohol. Recommended by the manufacturer because of the Watch rinse wasn't drying properly. As far as I can tell it has zero consequence to shellac using that and I've seen other references of using isopropyl alcohol for watch cleaning.

Yet I've also seen a reference of using isopropyl alcohol For dissolving shellac used in wood finishing.

[AndyHull]

If you keep the rinse time very short, you *might* get away with using isopropanol, however I wouldn't risk it.

If your problem is that things are not drying, then add a little bit of warm air to the mix.

Note I said "a little bit".

Do not attempt to blow dry delicate parts with a hairdryer, you will never find them afterwards.

I sit my drying parts in a small container and warm them on the radiator in the house, and sometimes blow dry an assembled Timex movement in front of a small electric blower room heater, after cleaning it in lighter fluid (keep an eye on this, lighter fluid obviously is a fire risk).

This gentle heat will evaporate the solvents nicely, but take care to not over heat things. Not only does shellac dissolve in alcohols, but it also melts at a relatively low temperature, so if you overdo it, the fork jewels will sag out of the fork.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Is there more than one version of isopropyl alcohol?

Yes, it comes in different % concentration (the rest being water), a bit like vodka, gin, whisky etc.

Quote

Isopropyl alcohol – also known as isopropanol – is commonly known as rubbing alcohol. Typically, isopropyl alcohol sold for consumer use is blended with water and is sold as an antiseptic or cleaning solution. When blended with water, isopropyl alcohol is often sold at 70% (seven parts isopropol alcohol mixed with three parts water) or 91% (91 parts isopropyl alcohol with 9 parts water) concentration.

The stuff is also used in hand gel sanitizers, so the price has currently gone through the roof. Wait a bit for the virus scare to die down, and it will no doubt be back down to a normal price.

The concentration you use for watch cleaning shouldn't really matter, since it will all be allowed to evaporate, but I suggest that 91% would be better than 70% simply because it will be able to pick up and evaporate more existing moisture from the part, from any previous cleaning processes.

You could also use acetone, for this drying process, but it absolutely will damage shellac, and even the acrylic in the watch crystal, so I would use it with care. It does however dissolve those nasty varnishes that are left by long dried up oils quite nicely, so I do occasionally use acetone on a cotton bud to remove very stubborn grime, and things like superglue. Acetone will also loosen and help remove some of the more interesting DNA from the watch case, but make sure the case is not going to be damaged by it, as it is much more aggressive and likely to damage finishes (on dials, cases, crystals, straps etc.) than alcohol or lighter fluid.

Edited April 7, 2020 by AndyHull

[jdm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Recommended by the manufacturer because of the Watch rinse wasn't drying properly. As far as I can tell it has zero consequence to shellac using that and I've seen other references of using isopropyl alcohol for watch cleaning.

We had this discussion so many times, including with the pinned topic above. IPA will certainly loosen natural shellac, but manufacturers  may now be using something different that is resistant to it.

[AndyHull]

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Further thoughts on lighter fluid. The stuff is so cheap that I don't think the manufacturers are putting any extra stuff in it.

But you can conduct an easy test to see if the stuff you have is pure. Just put a drop of it on a clean piece of glass and let it evaporate. If it leaves any marks on the glass, it probably has other stuff in it. I use Ronsonol and Zippo. The cell phone repair shops here use it as the final clean before sticking on a screen protector. So I think it should be quite pure.

I use the stuff from the local pound shop (dollar store). Since it is cheap, it contains nothing but combustible hydrocarbons. No other additives. It works well, and evaporates from a clean glass surface without a trace. Clean the glass first with acetone to remove any finger marks, then place a drop of fluid on it. Warm it gently and watch as it evaporates. If it leaves a rainbow of colour on the glass, then it contains *something* that is going to remain on your parts after you clean them. If it vanishes completely then you have found what you need.