My first ever watch restore project. Junghans pocket watch

[HaydenE]

Well this forum post has turned into a my journey into a new hobby rather than just restoration of a pocket watch.

Had my first instance of losing a part into the abyss. I bought a caravelle wind up wrist watch off the bay, had rust, previous stem was broken off into the keyless works.

Took it all apart, removed the previous stem, removed all the rust, cleaned and re oiled everything. I started having a feeling of being in a flow, everything was going perfect.

Then just had to put the click back on, then the small as a hair click spring rocketed off the plate into who knows where. To buy a replacement spring is 16$, super frustrating. I need to come up with a way of protecting from rogue parts 

Edited February 28, 2020 by HaydenE

[HaydenE]

Said caravelle 

[jdm]

5 hours ago, HaydenE said:

I need to come up with a way of protecting from rogue parts 

It has been mentioned many times here, work withing in a clear bag, poke in pegwood and tweezers, vision won't be the best but still better than losing parts.

Then with your understanding I'm marking this thread as a warning for beginners that periodically show up here with the firm intention of attacking their timepiece, often a valuable and/or unreplaceable heirloom, without having any previous experience, and not even the tools needed. Only occasionaly we manage to dissuade them, but the one that we can't bring to reason invariably will never appear again to acknowledge their fooliness.

On the first watch - which is really nice, certainly too much for an absolute beginner, if I counted properly

• Damaged crown wheel screw from turning counterclockwise with the wrong driver - which is still a lesser evil, as a the correct one used with force would have snapped it
• (with the benefit of doubt) cracked train jewel
• Distorted hairspring

On the second, the "classic" flying spring. And I think you haven't got enough tools yet, not to mentioned a timegrapher or equivalent application?  I understand one can be happy when seeing that the watch runs, but for a repairer the real issue is "how well does it run"?

Please don't take this as flaming - I have done more damage than I like to admit, starting 10 years old with an innocent jumping hours heirloom piece - I still remember the watchmaker's comment about "someone messing with it" when I had to bring to to him  avoid my parents finding. And then continued to this day. Have I learned from my mistakes? Sure, but 99% of them could have been prevented being (much) more careful and documented. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by jdm

[HaydenE]

Right I understand it’s not flaming but what’s the advice to be taken from this? Stop working on eBay time pieces? Get more tools first before continuing?
 

Working within a clear bag for putting in springs and things under tension is a great idea 

[nickelsilver]

Right I understand it’s not flaming but what’s the advice to be taken from this?

The advice is to get a really basic movement, a minimum of tools and perhaps a book or two, and proceed slowly. For a good movement the Unitas (now ETA ) 6497 or 6496 are the ones used in schools. There's a Chinese clone too. It's large and works great. When you get the moves down on that, smaller and more delicate pieces become easy.

I think what jdm is cautioning against is jumping in too deep and losing interest. Watchmaking is 50% confidence and that is gained from succeeding.

[jdm]

53 minutes ago, HaydenE said:

Right I understand it’s not flaming but what’s the advice to be taken from this? Stop working on eBay time pieces? Get more tools first before continuing?

Absolutely more Ebay watches, the Timex you showed was a kind of extreme on the low side, beside they are not build much like the others. Most people picks Indian HMT or Russians - of the latter sorry I don't know which ones are to recommend. I would avoid Chinese as they are easy to break. Japanese are great but the good / sought ones are expensive, so perhaps postpone these. And the Swiss are always a bit more expensive but in the end they are the classic schooling subject.
I am talking about men wristwatches unless you have a liking for pocket watches. To learn, getting 5 watches for 10 euro each is much better than a 50 euro one.
A great exercise is take apart quartz watches and then put them back together without losing or breaking anything. Isn't easy  as it may seem especially if you challenge yourself to that without looking at the service manual - take an habit of taking pics at any step and fully familiarize with parts, their names and function and orientation. Ideally one should fully understand how things work and why they are built as they are. That is where books help the most. And the hardest excercise would be ladie's watches, which require top dexterity but are cheap as chips.
Of course, don't neglet yourself any tool. Chinese ones are generally OK, some may need a bit of refinishing before use. Some tools you will need to get quality, new or vintage, like cannon pinion puller, Jacot's (when it will be time), and others that honestly exceed myself too. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by jdm

[HaydenE]

Got it I follow now. Get something that’s cheap and already works and take my time taking it apart and putting it back together rather than trying to restore vintage watches with issues present. I see now. 
 

As far as the tools I’ve been phasing out the cheaper ones already and been buying things from Esslinger. My next idea is to get an ultra sonic cleaner and solution, then a watch timographer. 
 

It’s just kinda hard to justify the more expensive tools right now to the mrs since this is just a random new hobby lol

[Jon]

Hi there Hayden... 'Failure is your best teacher' I always say to my watchmaking students.

jdm is correct about not taking apart the family heirloom for the first watch to work on and also listed the biggest mistakes that are going to happen when someone first starts out on the journey of watchmaking.

Springs are one of those things that the more you disengage and refit, the better and more confident you are going to become.

If you have a descent pair of tweezers that are well honed and kept clean they will become an extension of your own hand, although this can take some time. I was told when I started that it would take up to two years to use them properly at which I scoffed, but realise that wasn't far off the truth, exactly like a micro surgeon and his knife.

I use carbon steel tweezers, because they are hard, don't bend and you can grip really tightly with them. You should be able to pick up a human hair off a piece of glass. I get a doubled over piece of 1000 grit wet and dry paper and grip it with the tweezers and uniformly pull it away from the tips. This puts an ever so slight grain on the gripping faces and you will be able to hold screws and springs so much easier. A sharpened piece of pegwood is a good idea to hold down the spring when you are disengaging or/and refitting it. The more times you do it with the proper tools that are in good shape the easier it will become and the confidently you will hold said piece.

Personally, I don't endorse using a plastic bag, because it is akin to riding a bike with always having stabiliser wheels on, or driving at 5 mph, just in case you hit something. But each to their own, it's just the way I do it and teach it.

Working on cheap movements and losing/breaking pieces is part of the process. Once you get more confident and better at it, then you will work on some quality movements, because your skills and confidence in what you are doing will have grown.

You are doing well, so don't get discouraged. It's like learning how to ride a bike.... you need the bruises to learn.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Jon

[HaydenE]

Great write up Jon thank you a lot for the insight. I’ll follow along to everyone’s advice very closely. Much appreciated. 

I just wanted to throw out there the first pocket watch or any of these for that matter are all eBay watches. I made sure to not destroy a watch that I’m fond of 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, HaydenE said:

My next idea is to get an ultra sonic cleaner and solution, then a watch timographer. 
It’s just kinda hard to justify the more expensive tools right now to the mrs since this is just a random new hobby lol

My U/S broke but I'm not buying another for now. I have found that with or without it I get, on average, identical results. As Jon said we don't all use identical methods, rather is the attitude and perservance that counts. I don't doubt that you have that and will do good.

[markr]

3 hours ago, HaydenE said:

Right I understand it’s not flaming but what’s the advice to be taken from this? Stop working on eBay time pieces? Get more tools first before continuing?
 

Working within a clear bag for putting in springs and things under tension is a great idea 

Remember watch, tools, hands in bag.  Head outside bag.

[HaydenE]

Happy Sunday, for the guys who are still interested in my now kinda blog post I got the Caravelle all back together. Took a little extra time doing the spring loaded parts and it went together fine.

But again I’ve come into another issue that I’m a little confused on if anyone has any advice.

I got all the wheels in just fine and the escape wheel spins freely when the stem is turned. Everything contacts fine it seems. But when I put on the pallet fork it seems that the forks jewels are almost too long to slip out of the escape wheels teeth. 
 

Using another donor 11DP movement that did work fine I swapped the escape wheel and pallet fork. Thinking the original escape wheel could have been bent or the pallet fork shellac got loose. Same result. It almost seems as if the banking pins are too close but they’re not adjustable it seems. Anyone have any other ideas?

[AndyHull]

Are the two movements actually identical? Sometimes there are different variations of the same movement, which may in turn have for example different rates (1800bph vs 21600 bph), and therefore may have different escapements and balances.

In other words, the balance wheels, balance forks etc. may not be interchangeable between different variants of what on the surface appears to be the same movement. What does rannft or 17jewels.info have to say on the subject of movement variants for this movement?

 

[HaydenE]

48 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Are the two movements actually identical? Sometimes there are different variations of the same movement, which may in turn have for example different rates (1800bph vs 21600 bph), and therefore may have different escapements and balances.

In other words, the balance wheels, balance forks etc. may not be interchangeable between different variants of what on the surface appears to be the same movement. What does rannft or 17jewels.info have to say on the subject of movement variants for this movement?

 

Both movements just have the 11DP markings and 7 jewels for the caravelles 

[AndyHull]

That is most likely a licensed Citizen 0241

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Bulova_11DP

I don't see any variations, so the parts of the two movements should be interchangeable, so that leaves the possibility that something is bent or broken. Carefully remove and inspect the two balance forks under good magnification to see if the pivots are straight.

If they have been previously fitted without aligning the pivots in the jewels, then the pivots may be bent, and this would affect the geometry, causing them to bind up against the escape wheel. Also check the pivots on the escape wheels.

Slightly off topic, but given the similarity between the HMT/Citizen 0231 (1802)  and the Citizen 0241 I wonder how many parts are common between them.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&HMT_1802

Franken HMT watches with working HMT 0231/1802 movements are cheap as chips on ebay, so if there are parts in common, then this may be a possible low cost source for parts for your Caravelles.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by AndyHull

[Jon]

I'm assuming you have tried the movement with the balance in place, as you haven't said and the pivots don't unlock?

Try putting a wind on the mainspring without the balance in the movement and check the 'run to banking'... That's where you push the pallet fork away from the banking pin and see how far the pallet gets away from the banking pin before it clicks over to the other banking pin. It should be a smidgen in distance. If you have to pull the fork far away from the banking pin before it clicks to the other side or that action doesn't happen at all, then the 'lock' of the pallet fork jewel into the escape wheel tooth is indeed too deep. Check every tooth on the escape wheel in this way.

Your top pic doesn't show a 'lock' as the escape wheel spins clockwise and the entrance jewel has the escape wheel tooth on the wrong side of it in your pic and your bottom pic shows a lock, but can't quite see how deep that is. Which pic is the problem are they the same problem movement?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jon

[HaydenE]

I tried the run to banking with pith escape wheels I have and have encountered the same result. The fork will engage momentarily for about 10 seconds then suddenly stop and if I continue to move the fork either way it seems to be stuck in the escape wheel. I was also able to re install the balance and had a similar result. It ran for about 20-30 seconds and then seems to get stuck. If I move the escape wheel in the opposite direction manually for a few rotations then it’ll continue engaging properly for a few more turns. The two pics i put up is when the fork sticks and what it looks like when I try to move the fork from either side. I’m not sure if all this made sense? 

I’m pretty stumped since I got the dame result with two escape wheels and two different pallet forks. I was thinking that the wheel was originally bent causing it to catch after a bit. I’m not sure if the plate could be bent causing the escape wheel to be at an angle?

I also think this is what caused the previous owner to snap the stem off inside, properly kept winding it until the rust was the weak point

[Jon]

I'm not really following what you have just said, to be honest. I don't understand how a plate could be bent either?

[HaydenE]

No worries I’ll explain what I’ve done so far. I’ve checked the way the power goes through the wheel chain. So I took the pallet fork and a balance out. Power runs just fine to the escape wheel. Then I put the pallet fork on and wind up the main spring. When I move the fork back and forth it doesn’t disengage and re engage. It appears to be stuck. I then put the balance on to see if that’ll change anything, if I blow some air onto the escape wheel just right it’ll begin engaging and re engaging with the pallet for for around 10 seconds, then get stuck again. 
 

I tried this procedure with two different escape wheels and pallet forks. So now I’m thinking maybe it’s the wheel bridge. Maybe it’s a jewel that’s damaged? The bent plate was just a random though, I was thinking that would put the escape wheel off center and not let the pallet fork disengage.

Ive also tried flipping the pallet fork over thinking I’ve put it in upside down. It then sits too low below the escape wheel so it’s not that

[Jon]

If you checked the train bridge from the barrel to the escape wheel and they all moved freely, I doubt the problem lies there. Even if there is a damage to one of the jewels in the bridge, I can't see it would stop the movement of the pallet locking and unlocking. Check to see if any of the jewels are damaged or cracked (but I suspect you already have).

It is more likely a problem with your pallet fork. Check to see one of the jewels hasn't come out of place, especially if it has angled itself upwards, because the shellac holding it in place has cracked or worn. This is quite common. It doesn't appear to be that in your pics though. The lock of the pallet fork jewel should be about a third of it's width. So it should have the escape wheel tooth locking against the side of the pallet fork jewel by a third of the total width of that pallet fork jewel. Any more, or much more than that, then the lock is too deep and this will give big problems, especially with the ability for that jewel to unlock from the escape wheel tooth. Someone might have put the wrong size pallet fork in there, or the guard pin on the other end of the pallet fork might be scuffing badly against the in setting that the balance staff sits inside of, this again is a common problem, especially if the pallet fork has been slightly bent downwards. If it doesn't unlock properly by putting some power on the mainspring and moving the pallet fork from one banking pin to the other, it won't help by fitting the balance to see if that will help, as the problem is with the escape wheel and pallet fork. If the pallet fork jewels are too deep, I think it's either the jewel has come loose and travelled further towards the escape wheel than it should, or it's the wrong pallet fork, or the escape wheel is of incorrect size

[Deggsie]

Hello everyone

Apologies if any of you feel this should be a new topic, but it runs on perfectly from Jon’s previous message, and I’m not looking to turn it into a discussion. You mention “lock” of the pallet jewels. This is a topic I know little of. Could you please advise me of a good source of explanation? Thank you in advance and apologies if this seems out of the original poster’s topic

Regards
Deggsie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HaydenE]

Been a long time and I totally forgot about this forum! 

Still been messing around with ebay watches when I have the time. Got the caravelle from my previous posts sorted out and a timex that was rusted to hell (I see why these aren't so popular/ sought after). Also been playing around with a lot sale of pocket watches I came across. 

Currently I feel like I'm more interested in some sort of training now, I'm thinking about purchasing Marks video series and following along with a watch clone. 

I was curious if anyone had any other sort of online learning options they might recommend?