Epic Fail - Help Resetting Lower Balance Shock Rolex 3135

[mzinski]

It was all going okay until it wasn’t...I was cleaning a 3135 of mine, reinstalling the cap jewel, and pushed the lower balance shock off the main plate!!! The cap jewel was slipping and I was trying to steady it - I accidentally pushed on it and pop! So, so, so disappointed in myself. 
I have not yet had to deal with something like this. Can anyone give me tips (aside from leave the work to the pros)? 
Without having taken a measurement before, when it was installed, how to I estimate the correct setting position? Trial and error? 
what are some useful observations I can make watching the balance wheel? Too tight it won’t oscillate. Out of center it knocks. 
thanks in advance and please go easy on me. Im pretty distraught with my mistake - felt like throwing up as soon as it happened. 

 

[jdm]

32 minutes ago, mzinski said:

I was cleaning a 3135 of mine, reinstalling the cap jewel, and pushed the lower balance shock off the main plate!!! The cap jewel was slipping and I was trying to steady it - I accidentally pushed on it and pop! 

Sorry about your mishap, unfortunately I can't help in locating a spare part, I surely hope you can find it, try an UltraViolet LED light in darkness.

Incidentally is for very good reasons that is common advice to work on anything that could remotely fly off inside a clear plastic bag.

Ask me how do I know that is sound advice that doesn't cost a penny, for beginners, intermediate, and why not - pro's.

[m1ks]

Do you mean the shock spring, (kif), or the chaton which sits under the cap jewel or do you mean the entire housing for the chaton and cap jewel, (though I can't imagine you mean the latter)

If either of the former, then for a kif spring you should be able to source a replacement. For a chaton or jewel hole, somewhat harder due to parts restrictions so finding it would be the better option. As per JDM a UV light and failing that try and clear away everything in the immediate floorspace checking they're not holding it and a vacuum chamber with a fine mesh/net over the nozzle should hopefully do it.

[mzinski]

30 minutes ago, m1ks said:

Do you mean the shock spring, (kif), or the chaton which sits under the cap jewel or do you mean the entire housing for the chaton and cap jewel, (though I can't imagine you mean the latter)

If either of the former, then for a kif spring you should be able to source a replacement. For a chaton or jewel hole, somewhat harder due to parts restrictions so finding it would be the better option. As per JDM a UV light and failing that try and clear away everything in the immediate floorspace checking they're not holding it and a vacuum chamber with a fine mesh/net over the nozzle should hopefully do it.

No parts are lost. 
And unfortunately I mean the latter - part 95019-1 shock absorber for balance wheel lower. 
that whole housing popped out! It might have been loose to begin with. 
That might explain the very low amplitude that was the original issue I was cleaning for when it was placed DD position. 
But I’ll also accept user error. 

[jdm]

11 minutes ago, mzinski said:

No parts are lost. 

Good. On a first read, that was the impression. So to rephrase your question:

How do adjust lower jewel setting height, and consequently, balance handshake?

Correct? 

[m1ks]

Wow! The whole thing, that's highly unusual. Even very cheap movements usually have them firmly fitted.

I certainly wouldn't say it was entirely user error, there may be some part of the way you were holding/pressing etc that had something to do with it but typically the housings are pressed in and a firm friction fit so theoretically you shouldn't have been able to knock it out unless pressing from the opposite side.

First thing to establish is how tight a fit it is in refitting, if it's snug enough then you can sort the fit and endshake, (remembering of course on the 3135 you can adjust via the nuts on the balance bridge side).

If it's loose however, that needs addressing.

[mzinski]

11 minutes ago, jdm said:

Good. On a first read, that was the impression. So to rephrase your question:

How do adjust lower jewel setting height, and consequently, balance handshake?

Correct? 

Correct! 

[mzinski]

8 minutes ago, m1ks said:

Wow! The whole thing, that's highly unusual. Even very cheap movements usually have them firmly fitted.

I certainly wouldn't say it was entirely user error, there may be some part of the way you were holding/pressing etc that had something to do with it but typically the housings are pressed in and a firm friction fit so theoretically you shouldn't have been able to knock it out unless pressing from the opposite side.

First thing to establish is how tight a fit it is in refitting, if it's snug enough then you can sort the fit and endshake, (remembering of course on the 3135 you can adjust via the nuts on the balance bridge side).

If it's loose however, that needs addressing.

I’m a little relieved to hear it’s unusual. 
 

The housing fairly easily goes in and out now (and obviously that first time). I was able to reinstall it without the aid of a jeweling tool. 

 

[m1ks]

Don't quote me on this as I've never worked on a 3135 but I can't imagine they'd use a different method to secure them than the pressed interference fit that is typical.

Maybe if Mark is around he could weigh in his experience and expertise as he has worked on these?

If it's not fitting snugly enough that you're confident it will stay in place during normal use and wear then it definitely needs addressing by, presumably, replacement. If not it will slip and of course affect the operation of the balance.

[mzinski]

Thanks for the tips. With some perseverance I’ve been able to reset the setting and use the end shake adjustment to get things going. It’s not quite perfect but I’m starting to get the hang off adjusting everything incrementally to get results. 
The balance now springs to life but slowly diminishes its amplitude and rotation. I suspect the pivot isn’t quite aligned causing some friction/drag. 
Is a slowly diminishing amplitude the indication of anything else? 
 

[m1ks]

2 hours ago, mzinski said:

 Is a slowly diminishing amplitude the indication of anything else? 
 

Theoretically dragging or binding of the pivots I the hole or on the endstones, however, you must establish also that power is being delivered uniformly through the train to the escapement, checking the cleanliness of the gears and pinions and endshake etc, once you've established the train is running freely and the pallet is locking and unlocking and dropping correctly then the only thing left is the balance.

[mzinski]

11 hours ago, m1ks said:

Theoretically dragging or binding of the pivots I the hole or on the endstones, however, you must establish also that power is being delivered uniformly through the train to the escapement, checking the cleanliness of the gears and pinions and endshake etc, once you've established the train is running freely and the pallet is locking and unlocking and dropping correctly then the only thing left is the balance.

I should mention, before my mishap: 

- train moved freely after cleaning and recoiled when prompted by winding

- escapement engaged nicely and flicked with good energy

- prior to the mistake, balance ran strong and free dial up (328 amp) but sluggish dial down. this was before I cleaned the cap jewels and indicated to me the lower cap jewel was still very dirty or damaged

- it was when I was cleaning that setting + jewel then reinstalling I slipped

I still think the issue lies in that area. I am looking for help on a few things to sort it out: 

- I am looking for a Rolex part 95019-1 (KIF shock unit for a 3135). I've found the KIF Bloc Dessus size 3-32 dia 8 (.43) should work. I'd like to source one of these to try replacing. I've called a couple watch parts (Jules Borel and my local) with no luck. Wondering if anyone can help point me in a good direction for sourcing it. 

- I have a jeweling tool now. I will use that to remove and replace the shock unit. If anyone has a really helpful advice on doing this I'll take it. 

- As far as I can tell, the pallet fork is in good working order but I will post a picture of that later to get opinions and confirm. I'll do the same with the balance. 

Thanks again everyone! 

[rodabod]

If these are a friction fit like many chatons are, then avoid pressing it in too far as you'll distort the seating to the point where you can't achieve a friction fit any longer.

I expect a guide for the Seitz tool will exist. One of the key points when using it is determining the zero point on the micrometer scale prior to making an adjustment. You must press the lever lightly while the plunger is gently pressing where you wish to push, and then reverse the micrometer adjuster until you feel resistance against the lever (which you are still lightly pressing. Hopefully that makes sense.

[mzinski]

Here are those pictures, or at least my attempt at macro pics. 

 

 

[jdm]

4 minutes ago, mzinski said:

Here are those pictures, or at least my attempt at macro pics. 

No pictures of any jewel block and I don't understand why you want to replace that?

Beside end-shake I would check visually and aurally that the hairspring is not touching, that is a common of low and unstable amplitude.

[m1ks]

8 hours ago, mzinski said:

Here are those pictures, or at least my attempt at macro pics. 

blockquote widget

That guard pin appears to be quite bent, (upward as per this pic) normally these would be straight and in between the horns when viewed from above.

That in itself could cause a binding and dragging on the impulse jewel in one of the positions according to endshake and movement of the pallet fork and balance.

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, m1ks said:

That guard pin appears to be quite bent, (upward as per this pic) normally these would be straight and in between the horns when viewed from above.

Good observation. Wondering what maneuver may have caused that. 

[mzinski]

34 minutes ago, jdm said:

Good observation. Wondering what maneuver may have caused that. 

My epic blunder was surely the cause. The bloc pushed right thru and bent that. 
This was my worry affirmed. I secretly hoped it was supposed to be like this. 
I will give it a go to straighten before buying a new one. Any good advice for this maneuver? 

[m1ks]

3 hours ago, mzinski said:

My epic blunder was surely the cause. The bloc pushed right thru and bent that. 
This was my worry affirmed. I secretly hoped it was supposed to be like this. 
I will give it a go to straighten before buying a new one. Any good advice for this maneuver? 

Carefully. 

Apologies, couldn't resist. There's no magic formula for trying to bend metals that have bent already, the softer they are the better the chance and heat can sometimes help but not in this case, far too much risk of further damage if you tried to apply heat.

Some good strong tweezers and very carefully a little at a time, some means of clamping the pallet fork would be a good idea like a pallet warmer or staking block.

Hopefully that will resolve the amplitude issue if you can successfully straighten.

Edited February 4, 2020 by m1ks

[JohnR725]

Out of curiosity do you have the service manual for your watch? Then getting Rolex parts in the US is really challenging as Rolex doesn't like independent watchmakers. Another source for Rolex parts is the link below.

https://startimesupply.com/

[mzinski]

9 hours ago, m1ks said:

Carefully. 

Apologies, couldn't resist. There's no magic formula for trying to bend metals that have bent already, the softer they are the better the chance and heat can sometimes help but not in this case, far too much risk of further damage if you tried to apply heat.

Some good strong tweezers and very carefully a little at a time, some means of clamping the pallet fork would be a good idea like a pallet warmer or staking block.

Hopefully that will resolve the amplitude issue if you can successfully straighten.

Thank you for the idea to clamp the pallet fork with the jeweling tool - it worked brilliantly! Straightened right out. 
Used the jeweling tool to incrementally set the height for the shock bloc then micro adjusted the end shake to have just a hair. 
And the balance springs to life with 0.1 beat error and 290 amplitude. It’s still losing 60 seconds per day so I will likely adjust the Stella screws to capture a better beat rate. 
And I’ll add, for all the stress of doing this I’ve realized what a dream it is to have a jeweling tool! I really must get one! 

[mzinski]

Dumb confirming question: microstella adjustments:

move them inwards toward the center = faster beat rate (gain time) 

move them outwards towards the rim = slower beat rate (lose time) 

Also, I noticed a variable rate every minute. I pulled the balance and pallet and studied the spin of the fourth wheel - notice the asymmetry? I think the wheel is out of round! I will also check the jewels. 

Video below is in slow motion. 

[rodabod]

I suspect you may have bent that wheel somehow.

[rodabod]

And yes, screws outwards = slower (like a ballerina's arms).

[m1ks]

Yup, you've got a squiffy pivot there.

If you pull the wheel out and roll the pivot on some sheet glass or a flat staking block you'll be able to see it. Theoretically you should be able to even it if you carefully roll it and apply pressure from the top with something like a smoothing file, or any hardened flat smooth steel.

Mark did a video on re pivotting where at the start he shows the technique mentioned. The key is to go carefully as pivots can and will break easily.