Timex M24 Repair Issue (Problem with balance?)

[dups68]

Hello all, 

I'm new to the forum and watch repair in general and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction on the issues I'm having with these movements.

I received the two watches for parts/repair hoping to repair them back to working order. I cleaned the movements following guides online/the repair manual, lubricated and found both movements still not working. They both take a wind but the balance wheel refuses to oscillate. Looking through a loupe I see that the impulse peg is sitting outside the "fork" pallet lever. On one movement it sits to the left and the other it sits to the right. Looking at some other timex movements I have, the peg seems to sit between the "fork" while the watch is not running.

 

The balances rotate freely in one direction when rotating with my finger (one only moves clockwise, the other only moves counter clockwise). However, both will not rotate in the opposite direction. After about a full turn in the free direction, it seems like the peg moves to the right location and I can cycle the pallet and escape wheel by moving the balance back and forth with my finger. Once I remove my finger from the balance, it snaps back to the point where it can no longer move in both directions.

 

Anyone have any ideas on this one? Are the movements toast or should the still be repairable?

 

Thanks!

[AndyHull]

8 minutes ago, dups68 said:

Are the movements toast or should the still be repairable?

I haven't seen one yet that wasn't repairable. I suspect that they have had a bit of rough treatment.

Check the hairspring is sitting true and flat.

If so, then move the balance wheel gently in the direction it is free to travel.

next gently push the fork in to the same side, then allow the balance pin to rest in the fork, now carefully release the fork and see if everything now works as expected.

 

If the hairspring is distorted, you will need to address that first.

If the balance wheel pivots are  not sitting in the vconic cups, then you will need to fix that first.

I think a few closeup pictures would go a long way towards helping  us with any further diagnosis.

[watchweasol]

Hi The problem is known as over banked, what happened was as the balance swung onto the banking pin the watch received a shock this caused the fork/pallet to bounce back leaving the impulse pin on the wrong side of the fork/pallet. Follow Andys instructions and it should pop back in.  In theory this should not happen as the guard pin on the fork/pallet should stop it but if the balance "V" conic bearings are not adjusted correctly,too high or too low or are loose it can.

[dups68]

Thank you guys for the help! I'll give it a shot tonight and try to upload some pictures. Should the fork be pushed past the pin, then moved back to allow the finger to catch?

[watchweasol]

Hi   As Andy said move the balance to its free side up to the banking pin and hold there next move the fork/pallet to wards the same side untill the impulse pin on the balance engages the fork/pallet. Use no force at all. If it engages ok without pressure release the balance and now it should work. If you cannot engage the impulse pin with the for/pallet using this method then undo the moveable "V"conic bearing untill you are able to manouvre the impulse pin into position then tighten the "V"conic bearing until the minimum of shake but still free to rotate the balance. Do not over tighten The "V"conic bearing..       I assume that you have the service manual for the watch,  If not go to  'google drive'   they are all on there   cheers

[dups68]

Thanks for the help. I was able to get the pins back in the fork. One movement still isn't running but the other is sorta working. The one thats working is running super slow and weakly. The oscillation of the balance seems slow and the swing is only around a quarter rotation, where I've read I should be getting at least a half turn during the oscillation.

When resetting the "working" impulse pin I accidently knocked the fork without rotating the balance and the impulse pin engaged. I re-disengauged the impulse pin, rotated the balance, and reset the impulse pin, but now I'm thinking that maybe I rotated it the wrong direction compared to what I should have originally done. Would this make a difference? Or is there something else which could cause the slow movement? 

[AndyHull]

5 hours ago, dups68 said:

is there something else which could cause the slow movement?

Dirt is the most likely cause of a sluggish movement. Did you give the whole mechanism a long thorough soaking in lighter fluid?

You shouldn't need to disassemble it, just give it a good slunge. The process has been described a few times here on WRT. This technique applies *only* to Timex pin levers. Other watches wont be quite so forgiving about this kind of treatment.

One other thing to watch out for. When oiling the pivots, use oil sparingly. A tiny drop applied with the very tip of a sewing needle (or better still a proper watch oiler) is all that is needed. If you over oil, particularly if you over oil the balance, escape wheel or fork, then this will be counter productive. You do need *some* oil, since the metal on metal pivots in bushings mechanism will have far higher friction without oiling. If you don't have access to watch oil, you could use a light oil like sewing machine oil, but a proper quality watch oil is way better.

You might get some better performance by oiling the v-conic balance pivots. Don't get any oil on the hairspring, or damage it in the process. Of you do get oil on the hairspring, it will probably start sticking to itself. This will probably have the opposite effect to the one you might expect, as it will typically cause the movement to run way too fast, rather than too slow. If you get oil on the hairspring, wash it off again with another trip for the whole mechanism through the lighter fluid bath.

The pins on the fork, and the faces of the teeth on the escape wheel may also benefit from the merest whiff of oil too.
 

Can you post pictures of the balances as they currently sit?

 

[dups68]

1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

Dirt is the most likely cause of a sluggish movement. Did you give the whole mechanism a long thorough soaking in lighter fluid?

I gave them about a 20 minute soak in lighter fluid before I started trying to get them running. I might have been a little to excessive in oiling the vconic on them. I'm going to re-soak tonight and try again.

Do you think that ultrasonic cleaning would be beneficial? I was going to by small Mason jars to place the movements and lighter fluid in the place them into an ultrasonic clearer to try and better loosen up any dirt and gunk inside.

The first 4 pics are the movement running slowly and the others are the movement that wouldn't run 

 

 

[AndyHull]

Hmm tricky.. they both look as though the hairspring may not be entirely flat, but the pictures are not that clear.
The one that doesn't run, does the balance swing freely, and does the fork move back and forth (albeit for a short period before it stops)?

40 minutes ago, dups68 said:

I'm going to re-soak tonight and try again.

Try that first, don't oil just yet, and lets see if they actually run.

[dups68]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Hmm tricky.. they both look as though the hairspring may not be entirely flat, but the pictures are not that clear.
The one that doesn't run, does the balance swing freely, and does the fork move back and forth (albeit for a short period before it stops)?

I think one of the hairsprings was sitting a little crooked. I'll try to take some better pictures tonight. How would I straighten it out? Do I have to remove the balance and re-pin the spring? 

On the one that doesn't run the balance moves when rotated with a finger but won't turn when wound.

 

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

[AndyHull]

35 minutes ago, dups68 said:

I think one of the hairsprings was sitting a little crooked. I'll try to take some better pictures tonight. How would I straighten it out? Do I have to remove the balance and re-pin the spring? 

On the one that doesn't run the balance moves when rotated with a finger but won't turn when wound.

Better pictures would help us diagnose the hairsprings.

[dups68]

Here's a bunch of photos. Hopefully these show it a little better. I'm going to break the photos into 3 post. The first post slow running. Second post not running, third is another I pulled out where the spring looked really off. Is there a guide somewhere on correcting the mainsprings? 

[JerseyMo]

are you workig on a 105 0r 106? oh I see the picts now - that is a 24

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by JerseyMo

[dups68]

Post 2

[dups68]

Post 3 - the last curl of the spring is down by the guide but the rest is way up high

[JerseyMo]

very common for the pallet fork to have gotten bent. Not becausse of use but because of someone poking around insdie the train.

[JerseyMo]

and that is a 25 - basically a 24 with date feature.   the hairpsring looks to be touching the top plate.

 

[dups68]

15 minutes ago, JerseyMo said:

are you workig on a 105 0r 106? oh I see the picts now - that is a 24

 

 

The first two were 24s and the third is a 25

 

Edit: Good eye you nailed all of them

 

Is there an easy way to reposition the hairsprings? 

Edited January 29, 2020 by dups68

[JerseyMo]

27 minutes ago, dups68 said:

Is there an easy way to reposition the hairsprings? 

nope, taking it out is the only way I know.  Well it maybe magnetized.....too.

Edited January 29, 2020 by JerseyMo

[dups68]

Ah okay was hoping to avoid that but I'll give it a shot if I have to. I saw an old post of yours on removing the balance/hairspring:

Once removed (and possibily demagnetized), should the hairspring just settle back into place? 

 

Also, the the hairsprings on the two #24 movements look off to you? 

Edited January 29, 2020 by dups68

[JerseyMo]

Once removed (and possibily demagnetized), should the hairspring just settle back into place?   >>>> Maybe

Also, the the hairsprings on the two #24 movements look off to you?  >>> from the pics yes but, can be 100%

[dups68]

still sitting high right? what can I do to push it down?

Edited January 29, 2020 by dups68

[AndyHull]

How good are your fine motor skills?

 

 

Watch those two videos, and you will get a good feel for what is involved. The secret is to make tiny adjustments, and take your time. Patience and care. When you start going cross eyed, and feel like throwing in the towel, take a break and come back to it later when you are fresh.

@JerseyMo may have these balances available as spares, but learning to fix them is a worth while watch repair skill to develop.

[JerseyMo]

This is a good example of how I got deeper into collecting and repairing.  You need a part you buy a lot. So one gets fixed and now you have more to fix. 

[AndyHull]

12 minutes ago, JerseyMo said:

This is a good example of how I got deeper into collecting and repairing.  You need a part you buy a lot. So one gets fixed and now you have more to fix. 

That sounds familiar, I just bought a job lot of "small seconds" hands, because I needed one, and a tube of about 100 random ones came up for lest than the cost of buying just one. I will try to resist the temptation to buy 100 more watches to use up the rest of the hands.