Eterna 1429u update

[ITProDad]

Well, it’s working. Stripped it down to the screw, jewel and gear. The balance staff pins look perfect and so too do the balance jewel holes. But I’m still getting a great deal of end shake that. Can’t explain. The usual suspects: 1. Someone before me replaced the balance staff with “one that would work” and it’s not quite right. 2. Some before me replaced the balance jewels with “ones that would work”. 3. ???

 

Before I order a balance complete and new balance jewels, if I can find them, anyone have any ideas I may have missed?

 

Here are som pictures.

Dial up

Dial down

Stem up

The entire movement

And my new $16 macro lens for my phone, instead of using a loop.

 

 

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[Nucejoe]

You can shim the cock at the outer bounds, to lower the cock jewel. Cut a piece of thin aluminium foil to place in-between the cock and main plate .

In cases a pivot is worn short, I usually flip over it's relevent end stone to face the domed side towards the balance jewel. This will compensate for the wear and reduce end shake, thence , reduce positional variations. You would need to bend its relevent spring inwards the jewel-chaton, to hold down the jewel assembly in place.

 

 

 

[ITProDad]

You can shim the cock at the outer bounds, to lower the cock jewel. Cut a piece of thin aluminium foil to place in-between the cock and main plate .
In cases a pivot is worn short, I usually flip over it's relevent end stone to face the domed side towards the balance jewel. This will compensate for the wear and reduce end shake, thence , reduce positional variations. You would need to bend its relevent spring inwards the jewel-chaton, to hold down the jewel assembly in place.
 
 
 

Thank you NJ. The mor I think about it, I’m thinking the jewels May be reamed out to create the side to side shake.


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[Nucejoe]

9 minutes ago, ITProDad said:

Thank you NJ. The mor I think about it, I’m thinking the jewels May be reamed out to create the side to side shake.


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Do you feel side shake on both upper and the lower jewels? Or just one.

Both upper and lower Jewel-chaton assembly and holes are to be the same size on this caliber.

 Staff pivot should not jump out of the jewel hole as you lift one side of the wheel( balance wheel) a gentle lift. Perhaps a damaged jewel hole, wrong jewel-chaton and if the shock springs are so loose to let the jewel-chaton move inside the housing you will effectively feel the loose play as side shake.

[ITProDad]

Do you feel side shake on both upper and the lower jewels? Or just one.
Both upper and lower Jewel-chaton assembly and holes are to be the same size on this caliber.
 Staff pivot should not jump out of the jewel hole as you lift one side of the wheel( balance wheel) a gentle lift. Perhaps a damaged jewel hole, wrong jewel-chaton and if the shock springs are so loose to let the jewel-chaton move inside the housing you will effectively feel the loose play as side shake.

First, what is a “jewel-chaton”?
It moves side to side a great deal. Mind you, 30 seconds a day is not horrible for a watch of this age. But it can be better.
The cap jewels are domed on one side so I can’t turn them over. Also, the cap jewel casing is square. I looked on cousins and I believe the balance jewels and cap jewels are round. The balance jewels also look like the Seiko 7 I just completed, encased in a spiral type silver metal. I want to order the replacement jewels first. But I can’t tell if I’m looking at the right part on the diagram.


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[Nucejoe]

The metal part is chaton. If the wrong one ,obviously small ,it can move inside the housing. And you feel that as end shake.

Seiko type jewel or casing in an ETA is news to me. Perhaps Eterna used it in this ETA.

[Nucejoe]

I am trying to find a possible cause for excess side shake. Daily rate is Ok. The Shakes and positional variations should be improved.

Is mainspring new?  amplitude on such good grade movement should be more.

[ITProDad]

The metal part is chaton. If the wrong one ,obviously small ,it can move inside the housing. And you feel that as end shake.
Seiko type jewel or casing in an ETA is news to me. Perhaps Eterna used it in this ETA.

Any idea where I could find the correct part number? Eterna 1429u. I’ve looked but I’m not sure.


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[JohnR725]

The word update in the title implies that this is an update possibly to the previous discussion? If so where is the discussion because I'm curious about the past history of the watch before you serviced it. Then as noted the amplitude sucks for watch recently serviced. Dial-up and dial down always should have a higher amplitude than the pendant/crown positions. Then dial-up and dial down should always be almost identical if not identical.

 

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Eterna_1429U

[ITProDad]

The word update in the title implies that this is an update possibly to the previous discussion? If so where is the discussion because I'm curious about the past history of the watch before you serviced it. Then as noted the amplitude sucks for watch recently serviced. Dial-up and dial down always should have a higher amplitude than the pendant/crown positions. Then dial-up and dial down should always be almost identical if not identical.
 
 
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Eterna_1429U

Greetings JohnR. I bought Eterna 1429 on eBay for $37.00. Serviced it and got it working. It wasn’t working at all. Now it working but not correctly. The amplitude did bother me. But I think the end shake and variations in performance in different positions leads me to triage the balance first. Any ideas on the balance jewels? Part numbers for replacement jewels? Other ideas?
I sincerely want to learn and appreciate input!!!


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[JohnR725]

As you're open to ideas I find it unlikely that somebody substituted a balance wheel and/or jewels that were sort of right. It's hard enough figuring out which parts are supposed to go in this watch let alone find something that's kind of right. So it really be nice to know why you're having a problem before replacing all of the components.

The picture of the movement is the balance wheel moving in that picture or is it without power?

 

 

 

Yes the pictures bothering me before I put In more text for troubleshooting await for your answer in the meantime here's another source for parts or at least a listing to figure out which you might need as soon as we figure out why you need it. Looks like the 1429 cross references back to the 1428 for the most part. Then if you click on the parts here you find out all the other things that are using that same part.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETE_1428

[ITProDad]

As you're open to ideas I find it unlikely that somebody substituted a balance wheel and/or jewels that were sort of right. It's hard enough figuring out which parts are supposed to go in this watch let alone find something that's kind of right. So it really be nice to know why you're having a problem before replacing all of the components.
The picture of the movement is the balance wheel moving in that picture or is it without power?
 
 
 
Yes the pictures bothering me before I put In more text for troubleshooting await for your answer in the meantime here's another source for parts or at least a listing to figure out which you might need as soon as we figure out why you need it. Looks like the 1429 cross references back to the 1428 for the most part. Then if you click on the parts here you find out all the other things that are using that same part.
http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETE_1428

It was under power and ticking nicely, except the amplitude.


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[ITProDad]

As you're open to ideas I find it unlikely that somebody substituted a balance wheel and/or jewels that were sort of right. It's hard enough figuring out which parts are supposed to go in this watch let alone find something that's kind of right. So it really be nice to know why you're having a problem before replacing all of the components.
The picture of the movement is the balance wheel moving in that picture or is it without power?
 
 
 
Yes the pictures bothering me before I put In more text for troubleshooting await for your answer in the meantime here's another source for parts or at least a listing to figure out which you might need as soon as we figure out why you need it. Looks like the 1429 cross references back to the 1428 for the most part. Then if you click on the parts here you find out all the other things that are using that same part.
http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETE_1428

It was under power and ticking nicely, except the amplitude.


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[JohnR725]

It would be nice to see a picture looking straight down with no power in other words the balance wheel stopped. Then if you look sideways is the balance bridge parallel to the main plate? That it would be nice if you would actually just take the entire balance and bridge out flip it over and give us a picture of what the pivot looks like. While it should be impossible to break your pivots off it be nice to know or we could see that there actually they are and they look nice and shiny. If the jewels are bad often times they will nick the balance and you'll see the pivot will look rough. Or if some unknown reason the rust got in the watch then they will look dark in color or just with time sometimes they'll look dark the ends the pivots will look bad. Because right now your dial up and down is not the same and they should be.

[Nucejoe]

Pivot jumps out of the jewel hole easily if the side shake is due to large jewel hole. 

What oil did you use on escape teeth? And how much? How did you apply the oil?  Surely you know, poor amplitude is usually due to the drag on pallets. 

Did you take the readings you posted on low barrel wind? Low power?  replaced the mainspring? How did you clean the balance jewels, did you peg?

If the cock was previously shimmed on the outer bounds, the shim easily go unnoticed or gets  washed away and you be left with excess end shake.

I think the balance is fine, the issue lies in the esacpe mech and shakes need finer adjustment then proper lube.

[ITProDad]

Pivot jumps out of the jewel hole easily if the side shake is due to large jewel hole. 
What oil did you use on escape teeth? And how much? How did you apply the oil?  Surely you know, poor amplitude is usually due to the drag on pallets. 
Did you take the readings you posted on low barrel wind? Low power?  replaced the mainspring? How did you clean the balance jewels, did you peg?
If the cock was previously shimmed on the outer bounds, the shim easily go unnoticed or gets  washed away and you be left with excess end shake.
I think the balance is fine, the issue lies in the esacpe mech and shakes need finer adjustment then proper lube.

Pallet jewels and oiled with Mobeus 9415 with dip type Oiler. Balance jewels with 9010. Here are some pics of the pivot jewel and cap jewel under no power. I believe the pivot jewel is wrong for the movement and has too much play, I.e. it is too high leaving the staff shoulders too much room to move up and down. That would make it feel as if it were moving side to side when in actuality it is moving up and down.


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[ITProDad]

Pallet jewels and oiled with Mobeus 9415 with dip type Oiler. Balance jewels with 9010. Here are some pics of the pivot jewel and cap jewel under no power. I believe the pivot jewel is wrong for the movement and has too much play, I.e. it is too high leaving the staff shoulders too much room to move up and down. That would make it feel as if it were moving side to side when in actuality it is moving up and down.


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...and I did replace the mainspring.


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[Nucejoe]

So, it is back to your first diagnosis, wrong jewel with larger hole, in which case the pivot should easily slide out of the larger hole, just gently  lift one side of the wheel, I grab one side of the wheel with a pair of tweezers and lift gently. 

End shake has to do with the distance between the two end stones, you adjust by reducing the distance, ideally end shake is to be set about 0.02 mm.

End shake adjustment would reduce amplitude variations in FU and FD positions.

A larger jewel hole hardly impedes oscillation to cause poor amplitude.

I always adjust shakes before the final clean/ rinse. 

How sure are we of the pallet's health?  You may find it scractched under high magnification.

 

[ITProDad]

So, it is back to your first diagnosis, wrong jewel with larger hole, in which case the pivot should easily slide out of the larger hole, just gently  lift one side of the wheel, I grab one side of the wheel with a pair of tweezers and lift gently. 
End shake has to do with the distance between the two end stones, you adjust by reducing the distance, ideally end shake is to be set about 0.02 mm.
End shake adjustment would reduce amplitude variations in FU and FD positions.
A larger jewel hole hardly impedes oscillation to cause poor amplitude.
I always adjust shakes before the final clean/ rinse. 
How sure are we of the pallet's health?  You may find it scractched under high magnification.
 

Honestly the pallet jewels looked good under 3 power. Correct shape and related angle. But I did not look at them via greater magnification. I was thinking of starting over with the power train to see if I missed something.

I will try to life the balance to see how far it moves in the pivot jewels. However, I can’t figure out the proper part number for replacement jewels. How do I determine that? Finding the correct part numbers for correct replacement parts is still a bit of a void in my learning.

Thank you NuceJoe. I genuinely appreciate the input!!


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[Nucejoe]

A Texan needs ten acres to park his truck and surely has bought his Massy Ferguson before buying truck. So I get me some diesel fuel ( garage) and try a bit of it on pallets to reduce drag there, you just may be surprised of the amplitude picking up.

I don,t think you need a jewel, hiwever, we need a datasheet to find the part number.  Julesborel material house knows or has them. 

Regards 

 

[ITProDad]

A Texan needs ten acres to park his truck and surely has bought his Massy Ferguson before buying truck. So I get me some diesel fuel ( garage) and try a bit of it on pallets to reduce drag there, you just may be surprised of the amplitude picking up.
I don,t think you need a jewel, hiwever, we need a datasheet to find the part number.  Julesborel material house knows or has them. 
Regards 
 

I think Ill stick with 9415. I’m going to pull the balance and fork again to clean, lube and inspect. Along with the jewels. I bought 2 more 1429u movements on eBay. I’m hoping to compare and contrast to see if anything is different. The pivots could be worn short. We’ll see. I’ve down loaded to spec sheet. I just can’t tell which part is the cap jewel, pivot jewel or something else. I’ll look again.
Did you know I was in Texas?


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[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, ITProDad said:

I think Ill stick with 9415. I’m going to pull the balance and fork again to clean, lube and inspect. Along with the jewels. I bought 2 more 1429u movements on eBay. I’m hoping to compare and contrast to see if anything is different. The pivots could be worn short. We’ll see. I’ve down loaded to spec sheet. I just can’t tell which part is the cap jewel, pivot jewel or something else. I’ll look again.
Did you know I was in Texas?


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You are getting amplitutes in 200degree and runs region in all positions, that shows pivots got some life left in them and that pivot shoulders do not come in contact with the jewels.

Your location is listed as little elmTexas, I have been there.

Regards. Joe

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, ITProDad said:

I think Ill stick with 9415. I’m going to pull the balance and fork again to clean, lube and inspect. Along with the jewels. I bought 2 more 1429u movements on eBay. I’m hoping to compare and contrast to see if anything is different. The pivots could be worn short. We’ll see. I’ve down loaded to spec sheet. I just can’t tell which part is the cap jewel, pivot jewel or something else. I’ll look again.
Did you know I was in Texas?


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3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

You are getting amplitutes in 200degree and runs region in all positions, that shows pivots got some life left in them and that pivot shoulders do not come in contact with the jewels.

Your location is listed as little elmTexas, I have been there.

Regards. Joe

Before you reclean, the diesel fuel test will show if pallets are badly scratched. D fuel will reduce drag to minimum, I didn't mean it will replace the oil.

I doubt if balance is causing the poor amplitute. Good you got extra movements to try dif balance etc .

[JohnR725]

56 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I doubt if balance is causing the poor amplitute. Good you got extra movements to try dif balance etc

So were in agreement it's probably not the balance wheel or the jewels but? So when you get your other movements before disassembling them check out the end shake see if they feel the same as the current watch. The balance jewel assemblies in this are different than others and it's possible that the working just fine but when you're verifying by grabbing it it may appear to be too much.

The problem for remote diagnostics is we rely on your observation your skill set and as you still learning like we all are but your farther down in the learning curve there may be things that you're not seeing or grasping. Which makes remote diagnostics much more difficult.

So when the Watch is running and your rotating it around in your hand does the balance wheel jump out of the jewels Which would occur if there was an excessive quantity of end shake? Then looking at the pictures of the timing machine as there is a definite difference between dial-up and dial down that would indicate there's a problem but not necessarily the pivots/you will assembly. Does your hairspring look absolutely flat this is one that's really hard to see sometimes it's just touching the balance arms were really really close and when you turn it upside down maybe it is touching.

Then the balance protection system was trying to find somebody with another picture of your movement this link is interesting in that apparently the system is they are's? Except I've seen it somewhere before but it's unfortunately there's lots of variations of protection systems.

https://17jewels.info/movements/e/eterna/eterna-1408u/

Then you have a picture of the dial side of the balance jewel assembly we could see?

Other things of interest everyone should have the physical and/or PDF copy of this book it has interesting stuff. So for instance someone a snip out some things of interest.

https://mccawcompany.com/featured-products/bestfit-encyclopedia-books-111-111a-digital-download-pdf-version.html

One of things bothering me is the movement number has the letter U and I might have possibly discovered why? So it looks like that may refer to the particular balance protection system. So I have two pages out of the bestfit book and Snipped to section out of the parts List. It looks like the best way to buy these would be the complete assembly if they were still available which the probably not. Or find another movement on eBay exactly what you've done and swapped from their once you verify whatever the problem is or is not.

 

 

 

[ITProDad]

Before you reclean, the diesel fuel test will show if pallets are badly scratched. D fuel will reduce drag to minimum, I didn't mean it will replace the oil.
I doubt if balance is causing the poor amplitute. Good you got extra movements to try dif balance etc .

Oooooh! I thought you were talking about using D instead of oil. That makes much more sense.


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