Starter tools and watch repair kits

[jdm]

4 hours ago, david said:

That Bergeon model is actually an instrument size lathe which was designed to include clock size parts. It is a bigger and stronger machine than their Geneva style lathe and will reduce machine flex caused from heavier cuts. This is due to the double pedestal bed and the larger size.  It will  also successfully make watch parts, is extremely expensive and has a designer label brand name.

Thanks david. So, browsing Bergeon's .website one can see the 1766 "Geneva pattern" model which was copied by the Chinese since 60s. I don;t know how much it cost but I have no tool envy towards it.

 

[trigus]

Ok, so I have read this particular thread eagerly. In particular I found the comments about upgrading screwdrivers enlightening, but I am left with a question.

Given the cost of top quality screwdrivers, it makes sense to buy "medium" quality drivers and then upgrade the replaceable bits as needed. My question is this - what about starting with good (or top) quality bits, but mount them in 3-jaw pin vises with bearing swivel-tops?

Bear with me here - this is a serious question (albeit one asked in ignorance). Total tool length would increase slightly, and then you would need to label or distinguish between pin vises because they would all essentially be the same with different bits (in this case buying a set of 9 pin vises to make a full "set").

The upside is that you would get:  increased torque, a much more ergonomic grip, bearing swivel tops for a fraction of the cost ($6.00 or less per pin vise with a bit of window shopping), and in a pinch you could make do with one pin vise if absolutely needed and just change the bits. Heck, most of the time it would even come with a set of cheap drill bits as a bonus (for use with other projects not watch related). I just don't see the benefit to purchasing horotec screwdrivers (even if I had the money for them) when a 3-jaw pin vise appears to be as good or better for a fraction of the cost...

Lacking practical experience, I am pretty sure I am missing something important...would anyone be kind enough to either enlighten me? 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, trigus said:

Bear with me here - this is a serious question (albeit one asked in ignorance). Total tool length would increase slightly, and then you would need to label or distinguish between pin vises because they would all essentially be the same with different bits (in this case buying a set of 9 pin vises to make a full "set").

I recommend against that for user as screwdriver because it's way too fat and heavy, proper watchmakers driver are thin and light to get a good feeling. Cousins UK have "value" which means copied with attention. Same has Ofrei. I used Indian drivers for years without any problem on Seiko, but that's because these have wider slots than Swiss. Now I'll be getting some brand drivers when bought individually they aren't even that expensive. Very good ones are France made, A*F and others  I'm sure can be found for a discount. Then I treated myself to the below, Ebay 202315546239, very nice finishing, handy dressing stone and a storage for blades. It's much better than a flimsy plastic chrome rotating stand that comes with cheap sets.

Edited June 20, 2019 by jdm

[trigus]

Ok, so in your opinion the downside which I overlooked is excessive weight (for watchmaking, at least) and loss of close tactile feel present in a in mini driver. Makes sense.

[david]

Trigus,

Watchmaker screwdriver shafts are skinny for a reason. It is to reduce the force transmitted from your fingers and thumb to the screwdriver tip. The screws used in watches are very tiny and can be easily overpowered and broken.. Trying to use a pin vice could present problems from applying too much torque to the screw, twisting it in half.  Breaking  a screw off in a watch plate can be a disastrous problem as you may not be able to get the broken piece of screw out of the plate. Most inexpensive watch screwdrivers are usable,  especially when starting out. You can start out with a less expensive set and upgrade at a later time. 

[measuretwice]

we're skirting the edge a slippery slope......how long before someone notes" $10,000 for a watch!  wtf, my phone has the time on it!"  .   Point is we're in a space that depends on being driven by more than meeting just the minimal needs.

There's a pride of ownership thing, but maybe that's just BS tripping.  However the quality mix decision should also include "trust" and "pleasure of use"  Trust means should expect the best performance from a quality brand without crossing ones fingers.  Even though sometimes they fail with that, its far less frequent and there's usually recourse vs the low cost items.  Pleasure of use is a simple thing I've realized after close to 30 years of shop experience; really nice tools are a pleasure to use and less nice ones are a frustration.  As I do this for fun, for self actualization, I want it to pleasurable not frustrating.  

I've put together a workshop largely of the best stuff, but its been done slowly and inexpensively (truth be told, with a bit of buying and selling along the I really don't have much into it) through used tool purchases, estate sales, package deals etc.  Its the old cliche, you want it now, great quality and low price: pick two.  Its a personal decision, I chose high quality and low price. 

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by measuretwice

[Brahma]

Hi folks.

I’m new on here - just joined yesterday.  

My main area of interest is in pocket watches and I’m hoping to develop my skills to such an extent as to be able to service and, ultimately, repair them.  I have a couple of pocket watch movements that I’m hoping to get going in the future, and I have a couple of cheaper movements that are working that I plan to strip down, clean and reassemble.  I figure my first strip down will be better done on a watch that I know is working.

I’ve been doing a fair bit of research into what tools I’ll need to start accumulating and would be interested to hear what you would recommend to be the minimum toolkit for servicing?  And then for repairing?

Also, please can you explain what and how the watchmaker’s jeweller and the watchmaker’s staking tools are used?  Are they the same?  Can they be interchanged (as in can you buy a staking tool and use it as a “jeweller” and vice versa?

Thanks all.

[jdrichard]

Hi folks.

I’m new on here - just joined yesterday.  

My main area of interest is in pocket watches and I’m hoping to develop my skills to such an extent as to be able to service and, ultimately, repair them.  I have a couple of pocket watch movements that I’m hoping to get going in the future, and I have a couple of cheaper movements that are working that I plan to strip down, clean and reassemble.  I figure my first strip down will be better done on a watch that I know is working.

I’ve been doing a fair bit of research into what tools I’ll need to start accumulating and would be interested to hear what you would recommend to be the minimum toolkit for servicing?  And then for repairing?

Also, please can you explain what and how the watchmaker’s jeweller and the watchmaker’s staking tools are used?  Are they the same?  Can they be interchanged (as in can you buy a staking tool and use it as a “jeweller” and vice versa?

Thanks all.

I recommend getting the book "Practical Watch Repair" and all your questions will be answered. Including the need and use for 90% of watchmaking tools.

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[dadistic]

A staking tool is used for riveting types of operations, you whack a punch with a small hammer, and voila! You don't really want to do that when removing, inserting, or adjusting jewels. So a jeweling tool is made to smoothly push jewels, and to do that accurately.

Some staking sets have jeweling attachments that allow you to do both things,  but people often find that it is worth it to have a specialized tool for jeweling work. 

Cheers! 

[Brahma]

Thanks Dadistic.

I thought that would probably be the case.  I’m just disappointed the jewelling tool and the staking tool are so expensive.  If I buy a watch and it needs a jewell replaced, I’m buggered.  Until I know I can actually repair watches, spending £300- £500 on tools is a hell of an investment for me.  Enthusiasm only goes so far doesn’t it?  I mean I used to be an enthusiastic footballer before my back injury,  but I was never good enough to play in the premier league!!!    

Not  sure what to do about this .....

[dadistic]

Do what you can within your budget, lots of people on this forum do quite a bit without a lot of expensive tools. 

It's worth investing in the basics like good screwdrivers & tweezers,  and leave the rest for the future. Most of the skills you need to learn at the start don't require the most expensive tools. For example, I still don't have a lathe, although I really should. 

Good luck!

[vinn3]

"service  AND repair"  both require "tools".       i recomend the highest quality tools for the "best results".    Merry Christmass,    vin

[jdrichard]

Do what you can within your budget, lots of people on this forum do quite a bit without a lot of expensive tools. 
It's worth investing in the basics like good screwdrivers & tweezers,  and leave the rest for the future. Most of the skills you need to learn at the start don't require the most expensive tools. For example, I still don't have a lathe, although I really should. 
Good luck!

I do very little with a lot of expensive tools.

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[Hamish]

Hi...here is my two bobs worth.

My suggestion is to try to look forward to decide what level of repairs you would anticipate doing. I understand this might vary over time though. I would suggest that at the basic level you might just be interested in servicing the watch which would require you to have a decent set of screwdrivers and tweezers, hand setting tools, cannon pinion remover - readily available from many sources. You might also need a good light, lubricants/grease and a means to wash the parts after disassembly. You could go deeper into repair with case repair which would require crystal glue, polish, and possibly silver solder tools. All of this, again is readily available and relatively inexpensive.

The next level might take you to general repair and from this level I think you might need a good staking set, anvil, small hammer to name just a few. The third level of repair might involve you actually making parts and it is this level where things get really interesting and somewhat needy. Lathes, milling and all these entail together with filing, cutting, tapping, bluing, jewel replacement, mainspring winder etc, the sky really is the limit.

I recommend you watch videos to assist you in making your first decisions, you will see the tools needed and then you can search for a preferred source according to your budget.

Another area to think of, especially if you like to buy pocket watches in need of repair could be a good source of spare parts. Think about a selection of crystals, mainsprings, spare hands, dial repair needs, spare screws, jewels, the list can just go on and on.

The good news is that you can sneak up on this hobby over time...

[jdrichard]

Here is a video I made on watchmakers tools

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[markr]

Cool video.  Thanks.

[jdrichard]

Cool video.  Thanks.

Hey, thanks. I have a boat load more on my channel as well


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[markr]

Link to your channel?

[jdrichard]

Link to your channel?

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[Atul]

Hi everyone ..

im looking for some advice for a present for my dad.

My grandfather, his dad owned a watch repair shop.. in delhi between 1950- 1980 ash. he's always been fascinated with the mechanical watch movements. he's now retired ENT surgeon based in the UK.. and wanted to get him a good repair kit to start taking apart and repairing mechanical watches.. he's well versed in small fiddly work given his previous career and using microscopes.. loupes and fine motor skills.. looking for recommendations for a birthday present for a starter kit.. ive been looking but as this is not something im familiar with.. struggling to decide on a good option. ideally something that has a good case holder (versatile in terms of size.. up to large mens watch sizes) and all the required tools to get started. If it comes in a nice case would be beneficial.. budget up to £120 , but can push a bit more if it really fits the bill.. also looking for some mechanical watches for him to start playing with.. any suggestions welcome.

thanks all

Atul

[watchweasol]

Hi I would peruse the Bergeon catalogue, top quality tools but not cheap, Beware of the cheap options as they are usually bundled with tools which are not very good.

[Atul]

thanks .. witch  Bergeon kit would you recommend? 

thanks again

 

[Klassiker]

What about the Bergeon 7812 Watchmakers Quick Service Kit? It would be 35 pounds over your budget (e.g. Cousins), but there won't be any waste in there.

[Nucejoe]

Bergeon is certainly good but as watchweasol said not cheap.

Among products you see on ebay bar above, some will do for a starter/ hobbyist.

Screwdriver sharpener  for 2.99

Set of screwdrivers for about 10 to 15 bucks

Tweezers about 20 bucks

Stem holder 6 to 10 bucks 

You can get advice on each item right here.

Moebius 800 oil for about 10

Jax case back opener 10 to 15 bucks

And a running watch, Mumbay special with ST96 for about 15 to 20 bucks.

Plus all the help, advice and friendship on this forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[watchweasol]

Hi  I reckon Klassiker is about right, The extra will be worth it as regards quality and the tools will be ones that will be used, That is a "KIT". or there is the other route as mentioned by Joe, purchasing the items as singles and building up your own kit to the price you quoted, either way there will be plenty of advise from member as to what they personally recommend is required or essential to the task.    Cheers