Jump to content
  • 0
AP1875

Amplitude drops after service

Question

Guys, can you give me some pointers please, close to throwing the towel in here.

I've been doing this for a couple of years now and I'm getting really frustrated with my progress. Literally every watch I service has worse results (or the same) than before I took it apart! And I'm starting to think what's the point, I want to succeed at this but it feels like a losing battle... 

For example the watch I'm working on right now a chinese clone movement. It is a brand new movement and was running at a solid 300 amp fully wound, keeps perfect time within a few seconds per day. I thought with this one I won't wash the balance/pallet fork/mainplate. Just to see if that makes a difference to my results. I washed the rest of my parts in my ultrasonic in some acetone (other times I use isopropyl or petroleum ether as recommended here). I've put it back together and dial up it's running at 270 and dial down 230. What could I have possibly done that's worse that the way these are assembled in China. There were a lot of random oil spots and they're generally assembled in dirty conditions. 

I've taken it apart again and cleaned the gear train again. Cleaned up the oil from the movement that was there when I took it apart. End shakes look good. Stones are lubricated. Gear train moves very freely when I turn the crown. 

I've done all of marks courses and the No Bs watchmaker course and understand how to service a movement but rarely see good results.. 

Any advice appreciated 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0
59 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

A question regarding the recent timegrapher. Do the spots indicate dirt on the pallet stones? 

No.
They indicate that the 1st pulse of the tic noise was too low to be detected. A later, higher pulse in the noise triggers and gives a displaced (=later) dot.

Frank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
3 hours ago, AP1875 said:

I swapped the balance and these are the readings... 

Obviously miles better. So something must have happened to the other balance? I can't see a bent pivot, jewel looks OK, shock spring is still in place.it wasnt washed, literally removed placed in a dust free tray and then installed again. Any ideas? 

A question regarding the recent timegrapher. Do the spots indicate dirt on the pallet stones? 

You could always ask the watchmaker who taught you how to oil the escapement. I think he will be the one to best answer your questions. At this point everyone on here shooting in the dark because You are all over the map. You change this you didn’t oil this you cleaned this but didn’t clean this, etc. but I am very curious to see what your issue is so I am rooting for you. Good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
16 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

You could always ask the watchmaker who taught you how to oil the escapement. I think he will be the one to best answer your questions. At this point everyone on here shooting in the dark because You are all over the map. You change this you didn’t oil this you cleaned this but didn’t clean this, etc. but I am very curious to see what your issue is so I am rooting for you. Good luck

It's fairly simple. As I said in my first post. I have washed everything apart from the parts mentioned and reassembled it. You went off on a rant about my technique for oiling the escapement, which I told you wasn't the issue. I have confirmed this by swapping the balance. The problem is now isolated to this part, so I'm seeking assistance with that issue if anyone is kind enough to help. If you're just going to be passive aggressive  I suggest you take your own advice and "see your way out of this discussion". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 minute ago, clockboy said:

If you are getting the same results with all of your re-builds then perhaps you are being over zealous with the amount lubricants being applied or you are just using the wrong lubricants. 

Slight exaggeration yesterday, I was just feeling down because I've had problems with Chinese movements of late, it's not every movement.

Most of them are 'new' when I service them so maybe the results won't improve drastically if they're already running fairly well purely based on the standards they are made to. Should 270 dial up and down be the standard for every movement even chinese ones? This is what I base my results on, with a target of 290-300. So where I'm disappointed with the results someone else might be happy with results that don't quite meet these targets. The movement in this thread obviously has some other issues (with the balance). 

I have serviced an eta 7750 and 28xx calibres recently and had no issues with my oiling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 hour ago, clockboy said:

If you are getting the same results with all of your re-builds then perhaps you are being over zealous with the amount lubricants being applied or you are just using the wrong lubricants. 

THANK YOU clock boy! You said everything i have been trying to say except with much less words. But again OP is adamant about his oiling practices so i really cant see how we are going to be able to help him if he wont accept the fact there could be an issue with his oiling, OK it may not be an issue with “THIS MOVEMENT” but what about “LITERALLY EVERY WATCH (you) SERVICE”???? Iam actually genuinely trying to help but i cant offer advice to someone who refuses it even though he was the one who asked for it to begin with. Ask anyone on here i always try to help, but when you are the one actually being passive aggressive with me then sorry iam not the issue here. I never went on a rant and never said what you are doing was wrong, I mentioned several times how and what oils to use on escapement is highly subjective, i dont use 9415 w/epilame, but never said you cant, i never heard of oiling only the teeth and again, i also never said it was wrong. My whole response was in regards to over oiling, which as you know has nothing to do with procedure. Which AGAIN can be the overall issue you could be having even though it may not apply to this one movement.

GO back and read your first post. if you said  hey i have a movement where amp drops after service and left it at that it would be different story but NO, you said and i quote again For the the 5TH TIME  “literally every watch i service” you then later say No No No its not every movement. Lmao so it blows my mind how what i said which is what others members have already said is such a sensitive issue to you. 

I meant what i said it was not sarcasm, i truly want to know what your issue is here, but it seems like there hasn’t been a best answer yet so why not ask your mentor, i would have asked him before anything.

Edited by saswatch88

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 1/21/2020 at 12:44 PM, AP1875 said:

Why would a swiss trained watchmaker who has done lots of brand training tell me to do this if it wasn't the correct method?

Out of curiosity where exactly or what school was the Swiss trained watchmaker trained at?

Then I'm attaching a PDF with lubrication recommendations.

On 1/21/2020 at 11:54 AM, AP1875 said:

i use hp1000/1300, 9010, 9501 and 9415

The your choice of lubrication's is interesting? 9010 the universal balance escapement oil but what about the gear train? You'll notice in the Omega recommendation attached file usually they recommend something lighter for the gear train 10001300 is a bit heavy.

 

On 1/22/2020 at 1:17 AM, AP1875 said:

I moved the beat corrector all the way over as well

It's really best if you would visually put the watch in beat versus wildly moving the beat corrector all over the place because it's so easy to go past where you need to be. Then if you go far enough on your machine which isn't that far it's not going to give you Incorrect results as there's a rollover air for the Graphical display and if you go far enough even the numbers so you need to be reasonably close.

On 1/21/2020 at 11:16 AM, AP1875 said:

I've been doing this for a couple of years now and I'm getting really frustrated with my progress. Literally every watch I service has worse results (or the same) than before I took it apart! And I'm starting to think what's the point, I want to succeed at this but it feels like a losing battle..

Then congratulations your learning? Yes you're frustrated but if I interpret correctly each watch you service is worse than when you started and you grasp that. This is why I recommended new people starting with a new watch verify the you can taken apart clean and lubricated etc. put it back and it should still function. So many times beginners start with broken watches and can't figure out why they can't fix them even with the help of the group failing to grasp the problem isn't entirely the watch a lot of times it's the watchmaker's problem. So you grasp where the problem is you're not doing something right congratulations that's an important step.

 

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 1/21/2020 at 3:09 PM, saswatch88 said:

After oiling the escape wheel teeth like you normally do put the escape under magnification, you should not see any oil or wetness on the teeth after a few minutes of running the watch, if you do you used too much. They should look dry. Also are you oiling the pallet pivots? Because you should not be.

I have some doubts about this. If you refer to the Omega rules for lubrication manual, it calls for a check of a wedge of oil between teeth and stone after 24 hours of running, so dryness after only a few minutes would certainly fail this check. It  also suggests the use of epilame in conjunction with 9415.

Edited by CaptCalvin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I sometimes find that people (including myself sometimes) over-think some of the finer details, such as types of lubricant.

In the mid 1940's they were cleaning and lubricating watches with inferior oils (largely animal fats, vegetable oils and mineral oil) and still managed to get chronometer performance from wristwatches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

As for escapement oiling, perform your own experiments with a timegrapher to observe changes in amplitude and consistency in the trace. It's very easy to over-oil the pallet faces with 9415 - I've done it myself. I follow the BHI's lubrication guide and generally have no issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
10 hours ago, rodabod said:

In the mid 1940's they were cleaning and lubricating watches with inferior oils (largely animal fats, vegetable oils and mineral oil) and still managed to get chronometer performance from wristwatches.

There is a minor problem with this statement above. I have a friend that we like to bicker over lubrication. He was taught by his grandfather who recommended three lubricants. Basically a grease light oil and heavy oil and that was it. But someone our discussion it was discovered that His grandpa was servicing watches they were expected to come back for servicing each year. The cases were not sealed up they're not like today when you service a modern automatic it's probably going to be gone for five years.

It's amazing what you can do short term it's the long term that's going to be the problem. It's why I suspect were seeing it trend of changes. The quantity of oil used has increased. Then heavier viscosity lubrication's I'm assuming all designed to keep that lubrication there for at least five years.

Then there is the escapement lubrication I think that the super minimalistic they're going for performance. This is why they're going minimalistic with the 9415 Because as you've noted if you have too much you have a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
17 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

I have some doubts about this. If you refer to the Omega rules for lubrication manual, it calls for a check of a wedge of oil between teeth and stone after 24 hours of running, so dryness after only a few minutes would certainly fail this check. It  also suggests the use of epilame in conjunction with 9415.

You should not see any wet on teeth that are not making contact with the pallet jewels. Many manufacturers use epilame even on train jewels, but i said its not needed  with 9415 unless the manufacturer calls for it which yes omega does but i dont service omegas, and this is a Chinese clone. One thing i know omega does not say is use epilame and 9415 on every 3rd tooth of the escape wheel. And......This was a quote from one of my previous responses which was taught to me by a certified omega watchmaker.

“as you move the pallet fork, and the escape wheel tooth starts to come across the impulse surface of the pallet fork jewel, you will see a small wedge of oil form in the angle between the tooth and the jewel. If that forms when the leading edge of the tooth is about 1/2 way across the surface of the jewel, that is the right amount of oil. If it forms earlier than that, it’s probably too much, and if it only forms very late as it moves across, that’s probably too little. Its not just a matter of looking at the escape under a microscope with no action.”

Edited by saswatch88

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Oil wedge which shows too much oil, the wedge should form in the middle. If epilame was ran on the escape prior, some will transfer to that tooth and linger, at this time the entire escapement will need to be re-cleaned and oiled.

FE2562B5-E23A-497D-B3BC-E14FD3BA88AF.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
17 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

There is a minor problem with this statement above.

The statement is merely to say that they could get excellent performance with inferior oils (which did indeed need replacing every year, but that's not the point I'm making). You could give someone from the mid-forties a modern Chinese watch which was knocking out 300 degrees, ask them to clean and oil with 1940's oils, and chances are they wouldn't end up making it drop to 230 degrees, though in fairness, the modern oils may perform slightly better in the short term due to slipperiness.

I think in the case of the original post, if there was significant change in the amplitude in one orientation then I'd be checking the simple stuff: the pivot under magnification, the oiling of the jewel (unless it wasn't re-oiled) and the seating of the jewel hole and cap jewel which is easy to get askew on genuine incabloc settings, and possible even more likely on Chinese copies.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
35 minutes ago, rodabod said:

the modern oils may perform slightly better in the short term due to slipperiness.

 

I think you mean to say viscosity not slipperiness. And this is not why they perform “much” not slightly better than natural oils.  The synthetic oils were designed not to spread, therefore staying in their place much longer thus making the service last longer.

But i agree with you that you can make a movement run perfectly fine using old natural oils. I read a blog from an old watchmaker who used oil from Brazil nuts to lubricate pivots. I would never do it but it works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...