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Mainspring winders


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On 8/10/2020 at 5:32 AM, DrJoe said:

To answer the original question - the ring is to put the handle into to protect it so you don't press the plunger accidentally while fooling with the spring. You can sit the handle into it so you can work on the with the handle upright and the plunger protected.

Love this answer but if that's so, why are there 2 of them?

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  • 4 weeks later...
16 minutes ago, jdm said:

By our dear Host.

I feel disappointed after I watched the video. The video is as usual outstanding but it's always amazing how the Chinese clone the stuff and just don't quite get it right. Having a certain degree of disbelief I had to go back and rewatch part of the video just to make sure I wasn't confused but very sad and disappointing. Having a brass winding Arbor just doesn't cut it. 

For anyone watching the video above make sure you click on the YouTube symbol and go to YouTube. Then you want to click the thumbs up to let Mark know you liked his video because it helps with YouTube's rating system. then you really want to be helpful leave some sort of review in the comments section apparently YouTube really does look at the thumbs-up people leave reviews or comments all good for YouTube creators.

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5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The video is as usual outstanding but it's always amazing how the Chinese clone the stuff and just don't quite get it right. Having a certain degree of disbelief I had to go back and rewatch part of the video just to make sure I wasn't confused but very sad and disappointing. Having a brass winding Arbor just doesn't cut it. 

It's a matter well resumed in the fist 10 comments of the video. Someone said, they can't do anything fully right, which is mostly true. Some else do not have the money for a Bergeon set and will buy this one. The world wants (or need) to pay less and less for everything, they just supply to this demand.

If you look at the details of the winders it's hard to understand their logic. The case to start with is a nice stamped part which is expensive for the molds at least. A simple wooden box would have been better. The Indians make lovely, well refinished boxes, sometime I buy the tools just because of that. 

The arbors are so poorly finished like the machine or the tool used there has trouble cutting brass, imagine if that was steel. They changed all the sizes for no good reason. The cuts in the two hollow handles go in the same direction, probably the only guy that knew why that's wrong has left and they will continue doing like that forever.

As Mark noted there are a lot of parts that are the same that could be saved, but they didn't and will not do that, once a stupid practice is set it cannot be changed, there is no culture of internal discussion and improvement, typically every part is us sub-contracted multiple times, and nobody really cares about what is being done and why, just be done for the day and gi home. 

I think that the only possible explanation is that in China the better minds find better jobs outside the watch and tools industry. 

 

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Very nice video by Mark - as usual.

I recently decided to spend the money to get a set of mainspring winders. I really weighed the option of getting a set of these Chinese winders and almost pulled the trigger on one. 

They don't all have brass arbors/hooks by the way. This set (link) appears to be a bit better made, having stainless arbors, and some other components made of stainless instead of brass. Well, I assume it's stainless. It's a silver colored metal anyway.

winder_w_ss_arbor.png.8d1fc991a64e62f21ac9b7ff390ffe8a.png

That said, I ended up deciding to buy a used set by Favorite. I've heard mark mention Favorite favorably in his videos. Looking at this set it looks like it has seen honest use, but it is in fair shape. It also looks nearly identical to a set I've seen with "Bergeon" on it.

s-l1600-1.thumb.jpg.5bfd20c3741e9f38ae42ba9dcc01c4b8.jpg

s-l1600-2.thumb.jpg.0d1d2edb0bc64258a03a4b607011976d.jpg

Though there is an open/empty position in the box I don't think it is missing anything as the winders are numbered 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 - same as the Bergeon set I saw a picture of.

Speaking of which, here's a picture I grabbed off the web and saved for the size chart - this is not the set I bought.

Bergeon-Watch-Mainspring-Winders-1.thumb.jpg.fbb6627542ba4880d097800dce929cf4.jpg

It was a big investment, but I think I'll really appreciate having the set. Since it only has one handle I assume they are all right hand wind. I am a Seiko fan so I realize that'll be an issue for me at some point, but someone here mentioned the trick of making a dummy to load the mainspring into with the right hand winder and then just flip the dummy (containing the mainspring) over and load the spring into the barrel. I have a lathe so making those dummies to whatever size I need will be easy.

Edited by BrianB
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6 hours ago, BrianB said:

They don't all have brass arbors/hooks by the way. This set (link) appears to be a bit better made, having stainless arbors, and some other components made of stainless instead of brass. Well, I assume it's stainless. It's a silver colored metal anyway.

winder_w_ss_arbor.png.8d1fc991a64e62f21ac9b7ff390ffe8a.png

Good point, thanks. Ruipai is one of the  main Chinese watch tools brands (the other is Chainda), it could be that they make better specifications to the actual factory than others which try to price undercut.

Quote

Since it only has one handle I assume they are all right hand wind. I am a Seiko fan so I realize that'll be an issue for me at some point, but someone here mentioned the trick of making a dummy to load the mainspring into with the right hand winder

I don't own a winder set yet but let me clarify something about that.

First, the windind direction issue is not unique to Seiko but exists with any mov't having the barrel lid on the upper side (and likely the teeth on the bottom), for example the Enicar 1040 and its Chinese copies. I am mentioning only the ones I have direct experience with, but I think there many others. That is easily solved as per above.

The other more important problem is that one needs a winder that has BOTH the correct arbor AND the barrel size.  My understanding is that for common / current Seiko none of the Bergeon or Chinese winders has that. I gather that the design of the set prevents using a cranking arbor with a different holding barrel, so for certain calibers at least what is immediately available may not work at all.

Of course if I'm not correct on the above someone will certainly correct that.

 

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2 hours ago, jdm said:

The other more important problem is that one needs a winder that has BOTH the correct arbor AND the barrel size.  My understanding is that for common / current Seiko none of the Bergeon or Chinese winders has that. I gather that the design of the set prevents using a cranking arbor with a different holding barrel, so for certain calibers at least what is immediately available may not work at all.

Mark mentioned in one of his videos that this pops up from time to time - specifically with Seiko. I think maybe the Swiss are still mad at Seiko for the whole quartz crisis thing. Lol.

But in all seriousness, Mark indicated that sometimes he'll mix and match an arbor from one winder-body with another but that doing so is less than ideal because the shaft diameter won't be right and the operation will be sub-optimal at best.

If I found this to be the case I would probably either turn a custom winder-body out of a chunk of brass bar, or, depending upon the variance, use something to shim the arbor so it fit the body better.

Depending upon the application it's amazing how good of an action you can get using polyimide tape to shim a rod so it fits a bore better.

I have a Chinese hand setting press. It's actually made pretty well but the one part that was sloppier than I'd like was the fit of the pusher to the bore it slides in. I used a bit of polyimide tape on the rod and now it fits the bore great, but still slides smoothly (and now stays nice and straight through the bore).

Hand Setting Tool.png

Hand Setting Tool - polyimide shim.png

Edited by BrianB
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8 hours ago, BrianB said:

Mark mentioned in one of his videos that this pops up from time to time - specifically with Seiko. I think maybe the Swiss are still mad at Seiko for the whole quartz crisis thing. Lol.

But in all seriousness, Mark indicated that sometimes he'll mix and match an arbor from one winder-body with another but that doing so is less than ideal because the shaft diameter won't be right and the operation will be sub-optimal at best.

If I found this to be the case I would probably either turn a custom winder-body out of a chunk of brass bar, or, depending upon the variance, use something to shim the arbor so it fit the body better.

I was looking around the Internet for some data and stumbled upon this page on Otto Frei's site. On that page he sells left and right hand arbors for the various sizes of Bergeon winder. So if you have a right hand #10 but need to wind a left hand mainspring, and if you don't want to do the dummy-and-flip thing, you could just order a left hand arbor for the #10.

They aren't cheap ($34.95 each) but if it's a size and direction that you deal with a lot it might be worth the investment. It looks like buying the entire winder is about $59, so you're saving about $25 and avoiding buying something you already have (the #10 body).

Also if you frequently dealt with a left handed setup with a spring with a strange arbor diameter, you could buy the left handed arbor with the correct shaft diameter and then use a lathe to turn a body that fit that arbor, but fit the barrel correctly on the other end.

Speaking of arbor diameter, none of the charts/references I have consulted so far seem to tell what the arbor diameter is for the Bergeon winders - they all just list the OD of the barrel portion. Just for my own reference I measured the OD of the barrels and arbors in the set I just bought. Note that my set is a Favorite (another Swiss brand) but appears identical to the Bergeon. In fact I would swear that either the same company made these sets for both, or Favorite or Bergeon made them both and the other just put their name on.

In case it is useful to anybody for any reason, here's what I got:

   Bar- Ar-
   rel  bor
#  OD   OD
-- ---- ---
15 19.0 5.0
14 18.0 5.0
13 17.0 5.0
12 16.0 4.5
11 15.0 4.5
10 14.0 4.0
 9 13.0 4.0
 8 12.0 3.5
 7 10.8 3.5
 6  9.8 3.0
 5  8.6 3.0
 4  7.8 2.5
 3  7.1 2.3
 2  6.5 2.0
 1  6.0 2.0
 0  5.6 1.6
00  5.3 1.6

 

Edited by BrianB
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Yeah, I bought my set before I knew what I was doing.  Everyone was telling me not to hand wind so I bought the only set I could afford.  I've never been able to use them as they're always just the wrong size for what I want.  I'm sure at some point down the line I'll get some use out of them.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • jdm changed the title to Mainspring Winders
  • jdm pinned this topic
  • 4 weeks later...

Hey guys 

Had a bit a luck on the horses so thought i would buy a mainspring winder. (thought i could buy one now and again when i had the pennies). Went to cousins and i am non the wiser what to get. I was going to by a number 7 as that seemed a good size to start with .But at the end it says replacement barrels. Am i right in thinking they want you to buy that and then buy a handle on top of that so you can use it?

So you pay £42. and then you pay £35 for a right turning handle and the same again for a left turning handle.

Please someone tell me i have that wrong. I can pay £42 and happily wind springs on it without having to then pay for a handle.

cheers

gary

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/5/2020 at 6:38 PM, wudce said:

After I watch Mark video about these  Chinese sets I'm glad I not bough any yet.

Not all Chinese sets are the same. For example, the Chinese set sold by CousinsUK.com, which is the same set mentioned by the OP @CaptCalvin and @BrianB here, is decent and IMO sort of affordable as long as it includes a winder for the calibre you're servicing. The set reviewed by @Mark seems unfortunately to be total junk (pardon my French).

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1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Not all Chinese sets are the same.

this is an unfortunate problem of anything from China ranging from very good to very undesirable. This is where it be really nice to physically go and see the product that you're buying and look at it and hold it in your hand which unfortunately is hard to do online. Because online they seem to all use the same picture and not necessarily sell the item that's in the picture.

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I have purchased items from China but I have always been careful with regard to how important accuracy and robustness is. Horotec & Bergeron are the most reliable but pricey. BrianB gives a good example. I purchased one from China and it was crap the plunger just had too much play. I purchased a Horotech hand setter and it is faultless.

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I'm currently looking as well, and came across this thread doing my due diligence searching.

The last post is intriguing... We could absolutely make a spring winder, and any other tool needed, at or above "swiss" quality, with relative ease.

Reverse-engineer the bits that must be; make improvements where necessary*, and let the other details fall where they may (make it look cool!).

I just made some rack handle ferrules for long-obsolete audio gear for someone, and I had a local shop quote large quantities of these parts. I can help facilitate a project but I don't have time to do all the measurements and drawings to get them done. I can review the drawings to ensure what is needed to actually make them is there.

My suggestion is to take some low-hanging fruit (such as 3135 and/or 2824) and do a good drawing of that, and I'll work out the pricing on it. If we want to move forward, I'm in to help.

*One are of improvement is modularity. The Swiss winders al have the crank dedicated to each winder. Is that necessary? I doubt it. For 20 sizes you probably need at most five crank handles. 

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I was thinking about this a few months ago and produced some (rough) drawings of an adjustable tool.  A selection of barrels sizes can be used with a selection of arbor sizes (and directions) to create a set that would be universal.  You would only need one handle and one winder also to keep manufacturing down.  I'd be happy to collaborate on a project.

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