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How well should automatice self wind


Ajohnw

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Not exactly a watch repair question but probably more experience of variations here. I have a watch I hope to service so will wonder about this then as well.

2 new watches both with SW200 movements. I haven't worn an automatic for a very long time but they always kept themselves wound up. I suspect the beat rates were lower than they are of late.  I'm retired now but in terms of activity I'd say it's similar to many office workers that have a PC in front of them. I probably make far more mugs of tea and lunch etc. Fully wound both stop after the 3rd day, early morning when I'm asleep. Both gain on the first day, settle more on the 2nd and then loose. I tried few winds every night on one but didn't help much so bought a watch winder. Spins at around 18 rpm for 2min and then pauses for 6min. Rotation direction reverses on each spin. The watches are at about 45 degrees. So tried overnight maybe 10hrs in it on one of the watches. It wound sufficiently for the watch to be well into the running down wind. Stood the watch winder on end so that they rotated vertically and it wound to the point where there was a slight time gain a day. In fact I think it slows a little towards the end of the day. As it's a couple of secs hard to tell. This is a Bulova Calibrator. Couldn't resist it due to the price drop. It doesn't have the transparent back or slightly more showy dial so not sure if it's an early one with an ETA movement. Suspect not. The other one is a Christopher Ward COSC. As it takes days to find out what the watch winder will do not done anything but it's in the watch winder 24hrs a day. Maybe 10hrs vertical rotation and the rest at  45degrees. I suspect it's lost time. If near fully wound I'd expect it to gain. Can't be sure about this one though.

One thing I have noticed when one has run down is that if I wear it for the day it doesn't really start at all. Fit's in after a fashion with my usual day extending 38hrs reserve  to 60 70 odd. If I try the most common forearm movement - horizontal to vertical etc it doesn't seem to wind. Karate chops do achieve something as does  a general firm shaking around. Nobody moves like that. I also have well worn Russian watch that can''t be hand wound. Some of the chrome has worn of the bezel. Just picking that one up often starts it.

One thing I have noticed on a watch that I hope to service :) never done it before is that when it's fully wound the weight is incapable of winding. This probably happens before it's actually fully wound.

I'm left wondering if the world is full of automatics that people are likely to find don't self wind. Or if some are better than others and even if there is variation in the same movement model one watch to another of the same make and model etc. When I wore an automatic before men where men and things often worked as expected.

John

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OK your watches are due for a service, your post was extremely stressful to read don’t take it the wrong way but your doing it all wrong.  Shaking your hands, automatic watch winders and karate chops is not how you test how well your watch is winding and its power reserve. you can manually hand wind these movements, Starting with a full wind will give you more accurate results. both eta 2824 or sw200 is 28800 bph with a 38 hour power reserve. Any COSC needs to be within +—  3 sec per day. =- 5-7 sec per day for non cosc is acceptable in dial up and dial down positions. You will need a timegrapher to confirm this there are other ways but this is your best and most accurate option. The amplitude should be around 270 in DD/DU positions and a little less in 4 other positions. Then you have beat error. These are things you need to check before and after your service. If you never serviced a watch before please consider practice on a much cheaper movement, like a Vostok or something. I promise you will lose or screw something up and these aren’t cheap movements.

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The time keeping accuracy is fine wound up. The problem I'm asking about is what seems to be needed to keep them even partly wound up. I have a feeling this is normal for a far few people but aren't sure. The chance of some duplicating the number of vertical rotations that are needed in a watch winder during normal life are remote.

I have a Tg setup for timing but have been checking daily variations against my pc which is linked to one of the usual time servers. The accuracy worn is pretty spectacular - providing they are reasonably wound up - seems need circa 1/2 fully wound or more. I'm not convinced that 1/2 a day jogging or in a gym would do that,

:) I have no intention of servicing either of them only trying on a couple of Russian ones and possibly a Seiko movement well past it's sell by date first - one from india that stated balance seems to be ok. That should tell me if I can take one apart and put it back together again. Making that one work again though could be tricky. It's totally dead.

John

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How sure are you that these are really Sellita movements? I just finished a project watch for my son with a new SW220-1 and adjusted it to +/- 3 sec./day without variation from full wind until it stopped ... around 40 hour power reserve (see attached). If these are new watches and they begin to lose time when the mainspring is partially unwound I would immediately suspect either an underpowered spring (which shouldn't happen with a genuine SW200) or a dirty movement which shouldn't happen with a new watch.

 

As for automatics, if you wear it daily, it shouldn't run down on the third day unless you are in a coma, or are starting it with little or no power on the mainspring. 

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3 hours ago, vinn3 said:

i think a auto winding watch is too comlicated.  BUT;    if they have a good "night stand" winder that will not  "over wind",  for less than $ 100.,   i would not  complain.   vin

    the modern auto wind  watches have a clutch on the main spring.   if the spring slips too much,  it will not totally wind.   in the modern watches,  if there is no clutch THE WINDER WILL SNAP THE MAIN SPRING.    VIN

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Both watches had 40+ turns to wind them initially one of them more than once and a 50+. Good idea though I can check the power reserve easily enough.

The Bulova holds better than 4 sec a day, usually 2 both fast since it's spent over night in the watch winder but that had to be on it's side so that the watch was vertical. It lost as the winder should be used where the watches are at 45 degrees - significantly. The idea with this watch is to wear for a couple of weeks, see how much the time is out and adjust to suite. That can be done externally with a key that comes with it. They initially used ETA movements so not sure which mine is.

The other is a COSC Christopher Ward, I doubt if he would use clone movements. Behaviour without the watch winder much like the Bulova. It's one of their "retro" divers watches. ;) I like watches to be a bit subdued. I'll see what this does along with the watch winder next while the Bulova is running down.

Clutch? I gained the impression that the clutch was the spring slipping at some point as it's wound up plus some grease to minimise wear.

John

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I checked the power reserve of the Bulova. 40hrs as near as I can tell but that is correct to relatively few mins.  I very much doubt if the CW will be any different.

I also contacted a larger watch dealer and asked the same question. Reply - it's very common and one partial solution is watches with higher power reserve but many people will still find that run down will at some point need attention.

The Bulova with daily checks and use of the watch winder was holding time to within 4 secs and often 2 secs over several days. Couple of days using the watch winder on the CW and so far I can't really see any change. :) Not sure how long they will be like this but it's the only info I have to go on.

As both gain more than this daily fully wound using them part run down seems desirable to me and preferable to fully winding them every 2 days.

:pulling-hair-out:Watch winders are another matter though. As one seems to need vertical spins bought another. It doesn't behave as the listing or it's manual suggests so may not wind them up enough. The mode they should do according to the listing is they one I might need.

John

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A decent watch winder will be able to regulate the number and direction of spins/hour. You have to find that setting that works well for each watch. If they both have the same SW200 movement, then they should behave pretty much the same, unless there's something restricting the rotor or there is something wrong with the winding gears. An SW200 should put a positive wind on the mainspring when rotated in either direction. Experiment a little and see if it works better rotating clockwise or counter(anti)clockwise exclusively. 

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One thing I didn't mention clearly was that the time accuracies I mentioned were worn.

I tried the highest rate on the winder on the CW watch last night. It looks like it will gain earlier in the day and loose towards the end might even be no gain or loss of any significance over several days. One day though and it takes longer to tell. The Bulova going on several days is unlikely to need resetting for a pretty long time. I suppose that as it's the Calibrator they have gone to more trouble than usual to set it up. Not sure I would like adjusting it any closer than it is as no idea how much gearing there is between their adjustment and the usual one inside.

Bulova stopped making Acu Swiss some time ago so that may explain why it seems to need more watch winder spins than the CW. Really not sure yet, need to test it in the new winder. :) Wish they had carried on making them - made an offer on one of the chronometers that I thought might be refused and it wasn't. Do I need a chronometer - no, did I fancy one yes. Am I a watch collector - no. I just tend to keep watches I have bought and worn but fancied a change. I wouldn't have bought at anything like their original retail price.

John

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