Did I order the wrong balance wheel?

[Lc130]

Hi All

I'm a beginner and this is the first time I've ordered a balance wheel.  It's an FHF 28.  I'm in the US and order from J Borel.  When installed the hairspring is not concentric.  I also had to rotate the hairspring collet.  Not sure whether that is to be expected.

Is this the wrong part?  What part do I need?

Thank you

Charlie

The movement

 

My order. 

Installed

Edited January 5, 2020 by Lc130

[Nucejoe]

Hi Charlie,  I put the balance cock assembly on the main plate, it balance turns right , roller pin & fork do their number, you can be 95% sure you got the right one.

Push on HS near the stud to get the coil circles lay Concentric. 

 

[nickelsilver]

The screw for the stud in your cock looks to have been drilled slightly off, and it's causing the stud to twist, this is causing a lot of your out of center condition. A little push on the spring where it enters the stud will get you close to centered, then you may need to touch it up at the end of the terminal curve to get it right on. When these movements were made it would have been assumed that whoever might order a replacement balance would do such corrections (and set the beat) as a matter of course and for a trained watchmaker it would take just a moment. So not an indication that it's the wrong balance necessarily, but a bit of a challenge if you aren't comfortable with adjusting hairsprings.

[Klassiker]

Did you pin the spring to the stud yourself, or did it  come assembled like that? It looks to me as if the spring is pinned too far away from the end. Maybe that's also why you had to rotate the collet? Try it pinned at the end, with the rate adjuster running on the terminal curve section. What Nickelsilver suggests is also true, and will probably be necessary in any case.

[Lc130]

I don't think I'm capable of bending the hairspring.  Past attempts have left the HS useless.  Here it is without the wheel.  The holes are aligned (bit of parallax error).  What do I need to do?

Thank you

[jdm]

10 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

I don't think I'm capable of bending the hairspring.  Past attempts have left the HS useless.  Here it is without the wheel.  The holes are aligned (bit of parallax error).  What do I need to do?

I understand that you don't feel able to manipulate the spring yourself, I have ruined very many myself before improving slightly.

However what Master nickelsilver said that is exactly what needs to be done. So either you try yourself, of give to someone else, or set it aside for the time being. 

[Lc130]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

A little push on the spring where it enters the stud will get you close to centered, then you may need to touch it up at the end of the terminal curve to get it right on.

Oh boy:(  

Where do I make these manipulations?  Can you point to the spots.

Thank you

 

[nickelsilver]

9 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

Oh boy:(  

Where do I make these manipulations?  Can you point to the spots.

Thank you

 

Just going from the pic I would make two bends at the end of the regulating curve, this will bring the body of the spring concentric with the jewel. It may need some pushing or pulling at the stud as well, but I'd do the bends at the arrow first.

Edited January 6, 2020 by nickelsilver

[Lc130]

Do I make a bend outward at that spot?

Thank you

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Lc130 said:

Do I make a bend outward at that spot?

Wait a minute. How the watch runs now ? Is the regulator mid-way or what? What Klassiker said also makes sense to me, the end seems pinned too short.
What Master nickelsilver is suggesting is to make a dogleg. Many HS have one, if you can finely control the bends it allows to correct concentricity very effectively. But it's also very difficult to get it right for a beginner, ask me how do I know. So if there is an easier alternative I would try that first.

 

[Chopin]

I feel like we should leave the HS bending as a final resort. Maybe something else is wrong...

Couldn't you send it back for being faulty and receive a new one ?

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, Lc130 said:

I don't think I'm capable of bending the hairspring.  Past attempts have left the HS useless.  Here it is without the wheel.  The holes are aligned (bit of parallax error).  What do I need to do?

Thank you

I bet in your previous attempt hairspring had been on the wheel ( takes good skill that way) . Off the wheel now, if you just lay it on a flat surface( on white sheet of paper) you would have much more control over the task. It is really not hard to bend and shape,  you just had gone about doing it the hard way before. 

[Lc130]

2 hours ago, Chopin said:

I feel like we should leave the HS bending as a final resort. Maybe something else is wrong...

Couldn't you send it back for being faulty and receive a new one ?

 Not surprisingly, I ruined the hairspring on the first replacement.  This is the second.  They were both shaped the same.

[Lc130]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

Wait a minute. How the watch runs now ? Is the regulator mid-way or what? What Klassiker said also makes sense to me, the end seems pinned too short.
What Master nickelsilver is suggesting is to make a dogleg. Many HS have one, if you can finely control the bends it allows to correct concentricity very effectively. But it's also very difficult to get it right for a beginner, ask me how do I know. So if there is an easier alternative I would try that first.

I

I bought it as non running.  The balance does swing freely with a puff of air.  Should I continue rebuilding and see how it runs?  Or, is it obvious to the trained eye that it will be far off.

Ive not tried to remove and repin a stud.  I can’t find a video on it.  Does anyone know of one?

I can think I can see how moving the pin further down would make it more concentric.  

 

[Chopin]

Here is what you SHOULD do if the hairspring is the only problem of the movement especially since you say that you've had 2 ordered and both came like this. It's possible that the issue might be somewhere else.

Put it all together, and lastly install the hairspring, balance, etc. See how it runs (whether it loses or gains time) and then report back.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Chopin

[Lc130]

1 hour ago, Chopin said:

Here is what you SHOULD do if the hairspring is the only problem of the movement especially since you say that you've had 2 ordered and both came like this. It's possible that the issue might be somewhere else.

Put it all together, and lastly install the hairspring, balance, etc. See how it runs (whether it loses or gains time) and then report back.

Solid advice.  The low risk of damage approach.  Thank you

[Nucejoe]

HS needs the bend on fhf 28.  

[Nucejoe]

21 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The screw for the stud in your cock looks to have been drilled slightly off, and it's causing the stud to twist, this is causing a lot of your out of center condition. A little push on the spring where it enters the stud will get you close to centered, then you may need to touch it up at the end of the terminal curve to get it right on. When these movements were made it would have been assumed that whoever might order a replacement balance would do such corrections (and set the beat) as a matter of course and for a trained watchmaker it would take just a moment. So not an indication that it's the wrong balance necessarily, but a bit of a challenge if you aren't comfortable with adjusting hairsprings.

Eagles eye , the screw "is" drilled slightly off........ Amazing , considering the number of instances you spot manufacturing faults. 

[Klassiker]

How are you getting on with this? 

[Lc130]

4 hours ago, Klassiker said:

How are you getting on with this? 

I’m away from home and won’t return until Tuesday.  I’ve but most of it back together but not the balance.  I’ll report back hopefully on Wed.

 

thank you

Charlie

[Lc130]

In testing the train of wheels, it appears that the 4th? wheel (seconds hand) is dragging.  The train spins more freely without it.  The jewel looks ok.  I don't have the experience to judge the pivot.  Should I order another?

Thank you

 

[Nucejoe]

26 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

In testing the train of wheels, it appears that the 4th? wheel (seconds hand) is dragging.  The train spins more freely without it.  The jewel looks ok.  I don't have the experience to judge the pivot.  Should I order another?

Thank you

 

Looks broken/ worn.   The top of  broken pivots can,t be seen in the jewel hole from the other side,   "you can feel excess side shake on the broken side."

[Klassiker]

The pivot doesn't look broken. Maybe worn. The arbor (axle on the other side of the wheel) looks a bit rough. Dirty or corroded? That would create drag.

[nickelsilver]

It's normal the train will be more free without the 4th wheel, that's the 2 out of the 5 wheels in the train removed, keeping in mind there's a roughly 7.5x reduction in torque from one to the next. Pivot does look ok.

[Nucejoe]

Is that the pivot or arbour itself. Fooled me.