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Hammilton

Understanding timing report

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Good morning!  
 

so I got a Gruen Precision with a 510 movement, the simplest with the sub second dial, my James Bond watch, lol.  Well, it was running good the first couple days, seemed to be less than a minute off after two days, so I was pretty happy, and the movement looks really clean so I thought I might get away without having it serviced right away.

 

then it stopped.  I found that If I bumped it again it might run for a few seconds before stopping again.  So this morning I had a little time so I broke it open and popped the movement out.  I played with the balance wheel a bit, turning it a little and letting it go.  It would run for a few seconds and stop again.  I did this a few times then it started running 30 seconds at a time, a few more times and it has kept going an hour now.  I timed it and this is the output, dial down.  I didn’t try any other positions.  It never would give a rate, which seemed weird, I haven’t had this happen before.  The error would hang right around 0-0.2ms for long periods before jumping up to 4.3ms and back down.  Any ideas on what might be wrong?  Does this look like a case of just needing some oil or something is probably broke sort of thing?

91ADE933-51DA-4E02-B994-AA6BDB555B7E.png

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Poor lubrication can stop a watch. Would need dismantling and inspecting to say if anything needs more work other than lubrication. Perfectly fine running watches can produce these kinds of traces at very low amplitudes. Beat error and amplitude reading mean nothing with a trace like that.

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3 hours ago, Hammilton said:

so I got a Gruen Precision with a 510 movement

Where you bought from? Maybe it was is some place where not much attention is paid to shop cleanliness, so a fiber can eventually find its way around a pivot or in between cogs. If you don't feel ready to re-service it yourself then you'll have to return it or pay a professional.

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That looks like the timegrapher app. It’s garbage! Get a real timegrapher. But your beat error is way off I cant go off these results because of the app, but if this were a reading on an actual timegrapher i would say you need a service and a beat adjustment. There is no way your beat error would be .2MS with that reading.

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3 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

That looks like the timegrapher app. It’s garbage! Get a real timegrapher. But your beat error is way off I cant go off these results because of the app, but if this were a reading on an actual timegrapher i would say you need a service and a beat adjustment. There is no way your beat error would be .2MS with that reading.

You keep beating that drum of "real timegrapher" without any basis and usefulness to the OP. The correct answer was given above already:

 Beat error and amplitude reading mean nothing with a trace like that

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15 minutes ago, jdm said:

You keep beating that drum of "real timegrapher" without any basis and usefulness to the OP. The correct answer was given above already:

 Beat error and amplitude reading mean nothing with a trace like that

As you read my post i pretty much said the same thing. its not a drum iam beating. Ive seen too many people skimping out paying $12 for a crappy app when they could save themselves stress and confusion with a decent timegrapher 1000 for $150. This way they will get an accurate trace and beat error and amplitude will mean something. Its obvious this watch clearly has issues an needs attention a timegrapher is not needed to determine that but the OPs entire post was based on “timegrapher results” if you read the title to the post. So please explain in further detail how are you think me telling the OP to get a better timegrapher doesn’t help him. Maybe not here and now with this watch but in the future with other watches he may have.

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Needs a service.  Sounds like dried oil specially on fork pallets.

If you have removed the dial. Dunk the movement in lighter fluid , swirl the container, for a min or two. Take out the container and without delay get the balance wheel turning by blowing a puffer tangential to the rim of balance wheel, easy on hairspring, once the fluid has vaporised off of the hairspring it takes off running and for hrs.  This to show the issue is one of dried lubricant and a good service is in the order.

Regards joe.

 

 

 

 

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On 1/3/2020 at 2:22 AM, saswatch88 said:

That looks like the timegrapher app. It’s garbage! Get a real timegrapher. But your beat error is way off I cant go off these results because of the app, but if this were a reading on an actual timegrapher i would say you need a service and a beat adjustment. There is no way your beat error would be .2MS with that reading.

It is, but the beat error wasn’t 0.2MS, it was averaging 1.3MS (iirc, just looked and already forgot lol ).  
 

when I popped the case back off I found that the balance spring must have been going, it was moved all over to one side, and after running a few cycles it actually broke while I was watching it.  
 

I’ve got 35 junk 15 and 17J movements to practice doing cleanings, tearing down, lubing and reassembling.  Which is what I’ve been doing the past week.  I’ve done 5 so far so I’m not rushing.  
 

I keep having problems getting the pallet fork and balance spring back together right so I’m figuring that out now.  So far I’ve managed to get everything else put back right, but I’ve taken extensive photos and videos of each step so I don’t miss anything, lol.  I’ll probably still end up sending that Gruen in though, I don’t think I’ll want to wait 6-12 months before being able to wear it working lol.

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10 minutes ago, Hammilton said:

It is, but the beat error wasn’t 0.2MS, it was averaging 1.3MS (iirc, just looked and already forgot lol ).  
 

when I popped the case back off I found that the balance spring must have been going, it was moved all over to one side, and after running a few cycles it actually broke while I was watching it.  
 

I’ve got 35 junk 15 and 17J movements to practice doing cleanings, tearing down, lubing and reassembling.  Which is what I’ve been doing the past week.  I’ve done 5 so far so I’m not rushing.  
 

I keep having problems getting the pallet fork and balance spring back together right so I’m figuring that out now.  So far I’ve managed to get everything else put back right, but I’ve taken extensive photos and videos of each step so I don’t miss anything, lol.  I’ll probably still end up sending that Gruen in though, I don’t think I’ll want to wait 6-12 months before being able to wear it working lol.

When you say pallet fork and balance spring back together, do you mean the roller jewel seated correctly in the pallet fork? If so i actually just replied to a post on this exact process.

 

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49 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

When you say pallet fork and balance spring back together, do you mean the roller jewel seated correctly in the pallet fork? If so i actually just replied to a post on this exact process.

Yeah, that’s it, sorry my terminology comes from books published in the 60s, YouTube, is then half remembered and half understood before being garbled by my brain on the way out.  My fingers offer little resistance to my errors too, I don’t trust them lol

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13 minutes ago, Hammilton said:

Yeah, that’s it, sorry my terminology comes from books published in the 60s, YouTube, is then half remembered and half understood before being garbled by my brain on the way out.  My fingers offer little resistance to my errors too, I don’t trust them lol

It takes time, when i first started my hands would shake, part of that is because when your are new at it you are concentrating too hard on not loosing a screw or screwing up hairspring etc you dont even realize your not breathing right or even at all, depriving yourself of carbon dioxide which makes you feel nervous. Next thing you know your gripping screws to hard and pinging them across the room, Over time you will gain confidence, learn to relax, and not worry too much and then your hands and  fingers will be steady as a rock. Breathing properly helps as well as feeling relaxed, watchmaking should not be practiced under duress. But in time you will actually be able to use it to manage your stress and it will actually start to help you relax even when you are already stressed because you will get into that mind set before starting to work. Kinda like some people make model airplanes to relief stress. Iam a very impatient person with a hot temper, but Iam a totally different person with a pair of tweezers in my hand. That’s why my wife doesn’t complain i spend so much time on the hobby lol.

Edited by saswatch88

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I actually meant their inability to prevent from from typing nonsense, but they’re not the most steady.  Even under normal circumstances my hands shake noticeably, they actually had me get an mri when I was in high school because of it.  They’re not as bad as they used to be, but it took a lot of time to learn to draw nice straight lines (I draw comics in my spare time, well, I ink comics, I usually work with a penciller).  This will be much the same.  As long as I stick with it and don’t give up I’ll figure it out.  I was super excited when I managed to get one working again.  Now I just have to figure out how to do that reliably. 

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1 hour ago, Hammilton said:

I actually meant their inability to prevent from from typing nonsense, but they’re not the most steady.  Even under normal circumstances my hands shake noticeably, they actually had me get an mri when I was in high school because of it.  They’re not as bad as they used to be, but it took a lot of time to learn to draw nice straight lines (I draw comics in my spare time, well, I ink comics, I usually work with a penciller).  This will be much the same.  As long as I stick with it and don’t give up I’ll figure it out.  I was super excited when I managed to get one working again.  Now I just have to figure out how to do that reliably. 

Just like you Iam an artist as well, went to college for it and its my main profession. totally get you on the straight lines problem, i also did tattoos since i was 15 which helped since making a straight line with a machine that weighs 2 lbs and is vibrating makes a pencil or paintbrush a walk in the park. BUT I  have to say since i started watch repair i could almost be a brain surgeon. 

 

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