Rusted Stem

[Brahma]

Hey folks - Happy Christmas!!

I’ve got an old Longines pocket watch (1897) that I want to try and overhaul and restore.  I’m kind of falling at the first hurdle though as I can’t get the movement out of the case as the stem is rusted just situ.  This model has a pin set and this to appears to be rusted.  The crown has broken of level with the top of it’s entry place into the case so I have nothing to get hold of.

I’ve got some Horosolve rust remover, some wd-40, some 3-1 penetrating oil and some Elma 1:9 watch cleaning solution.  Quite a bit of the movement has got rust on it so could do with going in a bath of Horosolve but I was planning on taking the movement to bits and soaking the individual parts.  As I can’t get the stem or pin set out, I’m a bit stumped.  Should I just soak the rusted parts in 3-1 and then try and remove them?  Or put the whole watch (including the case) in Horosolve?

Thanks everyone 

Andy

[Nucejoe]

 Close ups of the movement helps.

A drop of penetrating oil on all screws and rusts, set over a night or two normally works.

Best

[Brahma]

Thanks Joe.  An image would have helped wouldn’t it! I never even thought of that!  Here’s a couple attached now.

 

[rogart63]

That looks bad . Not sure that can saved? With out changing a lot of parts . 

[vinn3]

Quote

 

  if you had an oxyacetalene jewlers torch;  you could gently warm that area after cleaning and applying proper type penittrating oil.   it would be un cool  to use a match or lighter.  vin 

[vinn3]

1 hour ago, Brahma said:

Thanks Joe.  An image would have helped wouldn’t it! I never even thought of that!  Here’s a couple attached now.

 

   put some oil on those exposed stem gears also.  vin

[Nucejoe]

Okay you are almost done.  You are going to laugh at first, then get good results in four days.

Penetrating oil on cock screw and let soak over night then remove the cock plus balance complete assembly. 

Be my guest to make fun of what I say.

Drop the rest in a jar full of Cocacola ( close the lid). Check what you have cooked in two days, winding wheel and keyless screws should unscrew easy ( no excessive force whatsoever)  If screws didn,t want to cooperate soak for another day or two. Try removing the screws, keyless as well.

Cocacola has never failed. 

I bet all parts will come of undamaged.  

Best  regards   Joe.

[vinn3]

20 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Okay you are almost done.  You are going to laugh at first, then get good results in four days.

Penetrating oil on cock screw and let soak over night then remove the cock plus balance complete assembly. 

Be my guest to make fun of what I say.

Drop the rest in a jar full of Cocacola ( close the lid). Check what you have cooked in two days, winding wheel and keyless screws should unscrew easy ( no excessive force whatsoever)  If screws didn,t want to cooperate soak for another day or two. Try removing the screws, keyless as well.

Cocacola has never failed. 

I bet all parts will come of undamaged.  

Best  regards   Joe.

     well;  my best secret,   must be getting old,  Kroil is better than Coke.     vin

[watchweasol]

Looks a bit gruesome but worth a try, Just think what coke a cola does to the stomach? but I wouldn't drink rust remover.

[Nucejoe]

It really works wonders, soaked long enough has never failed. Coke breaks most food  molecules. 

In case of incabs, jewels should be taken out and not soaked, since the sugar crystalizes inside chaton.

Plus a grin on your faces, that is the bonus.

Wish you all a very merry Christmas. 

 

[rodabod]

Can you remove the crown wheel, ratchet wheel, and the associated bridge?

Your hairspring looks unwell. I would be looking for a donor movement to help. 

[Brahma]

So I dropped a few drips of penetrating oil onto the wheels on the back of the movement (crown wheel and ratchet wheel) and all the other gears, pivot holes, etc. that I could see but it was still all gummed up.  So I dropped another few drips onto the screw holding the click and also dropped a few drips down the space left by the top of the broken winding stem. Left overnight and tried again.

Releasing the click got things moving!  Both the ratchet wheel and crown wheel turned and now everything seems to be moving.  However, I still can’t get the movement out of the case as I can’t pull out the stem (Should it just pull out?  Or is something else going to be holding it back?). Also, this movement has a pin set and that’s held fast too.  The good news is, I’ve been able to remove the tiny screw that holds the stem in place.

What’s my next step?  Is there anything else I can do to get the movement out of the case?  Or should I just dismantle it from within the case?  @rodabod- Should I be able to undo the screws holding the crown wheel and ratchet wheel from the back of the movement?

Thanks again folks.

Andy

[vinn3]

Quote

 

   getting the mvt. out without a disaster is your first test.      happy new year,  stay sober ?   vin

[Brahma]

Hello folks.

Took ages for the penetrating oil to release the screws holding the bridge and the ratchet wheel in place, but finally got them out.  The bottom screw in the Longines bridge wasn’t screwed in - not sure if the screw is too small or there is no thread inside?  There is some rust staining under this bridge too.  

In this picture, I have circled too issue areas - red being the end of the winding stem; this is rusted solid.  I can’t pull the stem out because it’s rusted to the sleeve (is that the right name?) but once I take the train wheels out, I’ll be able to remove it from inside.

 

This next picture is the front and you can see the rust again and in the red circle, it’s quite bad.  The component on the right in the circle I think is the Pin set;  

Here is the Longines bridge removed, also with some rust staining on front and back.

What is next now?  I’m assuming the remaining bridge is the next to come out?

Should also say that I took the crown wheel out too. Unfortunately, the screw head broke off so I had to use a sharp pair of tweezers and gently turn what was left until it came out.

Thanks all for reading all of this and for your ongoing help.

 Andy

Edited December 30, 2019 by Brahma

[Nucejoe]

Soak in Cocacola for two to three days, brush ( tooth brush) under tap water, dry off with paper towel, without delay start to unscrew/ loosen all screws including end stone screws. 

Use detergent powder on your brush.

Do not soak in vinegar longer than three hours, rinse under tap water.

Soak in lighter fluid, avagas, isopropynol each will do some good. Excluding shelac and hairspring. Lets us the resulting  mess please. 

Do not force parts out.

Regards 

 

[Brahma]

Hey folks and Happy New Year!!

I finally managed to get the main bridge out- after loads and loads of penetrating oil.  Strangely, neither screw came out rusted!  But there we go.  

Here’s a picture of the movement without the main bridge .....

I’ve labelled the wheels - hopefully I’ve got this right?  Only my third wheel has a pinion on the top of it - which is different to what I expected?  Anyway, I can’t get the second wheel out - it wobbles but will not come free- I think it might be rusted to the canon opinion?  I finally managed to unscrew the retaining screw that was holding the movement in the case and bingo!  I got the movement out!  
As has been predicted, this movement has almost certainly had it but I’d like to keep dismantling as a learning exercise.  So, can I drop it in some Horosolve Horelex Rust Remover now to try and get the worst off?  Or will this stuff melt / dissolve / damage any jewels still in place on the movement?

Thnaks everyone,

Andy

Edited January 3, 2020 by Brahma

[watchweasol]

Hi  as the watch is toast anthing you do from which you learn is a plus. Sp my personal opinion is go for it and enjoy doing it, you can try all the methods mentioned for rust removal. The cannon pinion may still be removable using a couple of small pry bars as used for removing hands. Probably needs a further soaking to break the rust or  some gentle heat or both.  good luck in your quest.