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Replacing missing balance jewels - how to find them?


Cykar

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Hi,

I've just started with watches, having fixed a poljot 2614.2h movement - my first , and I was so pleased it worked.

So I look on ebay for spares/repairs to fix up, something cheap that will give me sense of satisfaction I suppose.

Often, I find watches that show the movement in the case, but the balance jewel is missing.

For example, I found one today while idly doing nothing, a watch I really like the look of but again, the balance jewel can be seen to not be there. I can't see any other marks on the movement to give me a clue as to what it is and therefore what I would be looking for to replace it.

So my question is, with a movement like this where I can find nothing on the make on the dial (Emniro, made in "foreign"), what do you do? Just forget it and move on? Or are there generic rules that can be used to find a replacement balance jewel?

Below is the movement I was looking at. As I said, I may not bother with this one although I do like it and it is cheap, but cheap stuff that will never work is still a waste of money i think...

thanks for any help/advice.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MENS-VINTAGE-EMNIRO-DE-LUXE-17-JEWELS-ANTIMAGNETIC-MANUAL-WIND-WATCH-SPARES-REP/123995535979?hash=item1cdeb5ba6b:g:BowAAOSwH51d5BMg

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looks to me there is a balance jewel there. In the description it said the balance is ok. I want to give the seller the benefit of the doubt because if there was no balance jewel any normal person ho knows the littlest about watches will say balance is not good. because it simply wont rotate, or at best wobble around like a seesaw.

if it didnt then you can definitely replace the jewel by measuring the setting and the size/dephth of the balance pivots but you will need some unique measuring devices which iam sure you wont have and are very costly if you can find them. plus its a job for the professional or at best someone who has a great deal of knowledge and skill on measuring replacing jewels.

Edited by saswatch88
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Thanks for your reply saswatch88.

So maybe it's just not a thing i'll be doing.

I would say tho, with this particular watch, it looks to me like i can see the top of the balance staff sticking out - shouldn't there be a jewel in that place with cap stone and spring too? Maybe all the seller meant was that the balance moved, which it would do even without the jewel, or the the hairspring was ok.

watch movement.jpg

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27 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

No spring this is not an Incabloc/shock proof movement.

Not Incabloc but it is shock protected, and should have a spring. The pivot and cap jewels, and the spring are missing.

It looks as though the spring is probably one of the variants that is circular with three legs, like some of the Russian set ups, identifying the movement would help to clarify. 

 

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I agree with Marc above. The way I read the eBay posting, the balance (staff, wheel, hairspring etc.) is complete and undamaged, but he avoids pointing out the missing shock system, and refers the buyer to the photos instead. If you can identify the movement it may be possible to identify the missing parts, using Ranfft, or Cousins has lists too. Another possibility, if you do buy it, is to look at what is fitted on the other end of the balance. They are not always identical, but it will usually be the same system.

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Given what Marc and Klassiker have said, I think my hunch that the balance jewel and cap jewel are both missing is right. Apart from being able to see the end of the balance staff, the little notch in the metal at about 2 o'clock from the end of the staff must surely be where you insert the securing ends of the spring.

Clearly, if the movement could be identified, finding the right parts, or knowing they can't be found, would be very much easier. But if I couldn't identify it, then I suppose there's not much I could do other than try a few random solutions, like getting a mixed bag of shockproof blocs from cousins, https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/shockproof-blocs-wristwatch , and just seeing if any of the jewel/caps worked - is that a thing people do? 

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On 12/22/2019 at 1:34 AM, Marc said:

Not Incabloc but it is shock protected, and should have a spring. The pivot and cap jewels, and the spring are missing.

It looks as though the spring is probably one of the variants that is circular with three legs, like some of the Russian set ups, identifying the movement would help to clarify. 

 

I guess i can see the notch where a spring would go but this is a Swiss branded watch so not sure what type of shock system we be on it other than incabloc, I have never seen a Swiss watch with a shock system that was not incabloc. Looking at the movement nothing on it tells me Swiss though, looks more like those French cheapo watch movements. Like a tourist watch.

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23 hours ago, Cykar said:

Just saw Nucejoe's comment above - must have come in while I was typing. so that's a yes then I guess to getting a bunch of stuff and seeing if anything works.

Shock springs on both sides( main plate and cock) are generally the same . So you want to see similar spring among the assortment you will purchase. 

Google for shock spring charts, giving name and sizes of stock springs.

Best 

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6 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

I guess i can see the notch where a spring would go but this is a Swiss branded watch so not sure what type of shock system we be on it other than incabloc, I have never seen a Swiss watch with a shock system that was not incabloc. Looking at the movement nothing on it tells me Swiss though, looks more like those French cheapo watch movements. Like a tourist watch.

It's marked "Foreign" which I suppose could mean anything depending on where you are! Doesn't look particularly Swiss to me. The Swiss use two main shock protector brands, Kif and Incabloc, and both have a number of different styles, and ETA have some of their own in house stuff. In the past there were numerous other shock protection brands, as well as proprietary systems. It can be a real nightmare dealing with the older weirder stuff as finding spare parts can take a lot of time.

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I assume the watch is this fellow, or its very close cousin -> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/MENS-VINTAGE-EMNIRO-DE-LUXE-17-JEWELS-ANTIMAGNETIC-MANUAL-WIND-WATCH-SPARES-REP/123995535979?hash=item1cdeb5ba6b:g:BowAAOSwH51d5BMg

After a lot of head scratching I put the name "Emniro" into Google Translate, and it came up with...

этниро - which it suggests translates (from Russian) as Ethnic.

This may be a complete red herring, however it might be worth looking at a few of the Russian balances and their jewel arrangements. I have a funny feeling I have seen a similar movement in the past, but I can't remember what it was in. It looks a little crude to be a Raketa, or a Lutch/Vostok but it could be from one of the other Russian watch factories, most likely immediately post war.


The other possible avenue is that it might be German and from the early 1950s, (since there was a tendency in the UK to put "Foreign" on anything German, due to the unpopularity of all things German, in the post war period). It doesn't look like the simpler Kienzle movements, but I guess it could be from them, or perhaps a Junghans (although it looks a little crude for them too).

s-l1600.jpg

EDIT: It looks  from those photos, as if there should be a center second hand, but that may either have never been fitted, or it has been lost in the mists of time.

Edited by AndyHull
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1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

I assume the watch is this fellow, or its very close cousin -> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/MENS-VINTAGE-EMNIRO-DE-LUXE-17-JEWELS-ANTIMAGNETIC-MANUAL-WIND-WATCH-SPARES-REP/123995535979?hash=item1cdeb5ba6b:g:BowAAOSwH51d5BMg

After a lot of head scratching I put the name "Emniro" into Google Translate, and it came up with...

этниро - which it suggests translates (from Russian) as Ethnic.

This may be a complete red herring, however it might be worth looking at a few of the Russian balances and their jewel arrangements. I have a funny feeling I have seen a similar movement in the past, but I can't remember what it was in. It looks a little crude to be a Raketa, or a Lutch/Vostok but it could be from one of the other Russian watch factories, most likely immediately post war.


The other possible avenue is that it might be German and from the early 1950s, (since there was a tendency in the UK to put "Foreign" on anything German, due to the unpopularity of all things German, in the post war period). It doesn't look like the simpler Kienzle movements, but I guess it could be from them, or perhaps a Junghans (although it looks a little crude for them too).

s-l1600.jpg

EDIT: It looks  from those photos, as if there should be a center second hand, but that may either have never been fitted, or it has been lost in the mists of time.

Think it's a AHS 152 or same series.  http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&2&2uswk&AHS_152

Shock protection is called Rufarex.  Andyhull is right as it's a German movement . 

Edited by rogart63
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More info here -> https://17jewels.info/movements/a/ahs/ahs-152/

AHS_152.jpg

... including this  good clear picture of the movement and balance.

Note: This image is a slight optical illusion, the balance is under the balance cock, despite looking as if it runs over the top.

There appears to have been both a pin and a palette lever version, and it does indeed have a center second wheel (held on that top bridge).

 

 

Edited by AndyHull
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