Help on a Smiths Movement

[Toby1]

Hi

Can anyone identify this movement? It is on a Smiths round Bakelite wall clock. The one's I have googled all show the movement wound and time set from a below case knurled knob. 

I believe the escapement is a Smiths EA31 but again I have not seen this configuration on a Smiths wall clock. Could it be a franken with maybe a car clock mechanism? As it stands the clock seems over wound and only ticks for a short time.

Many thanks in advance for any help. I hope to attach a couple of images.

 

Toby1

[vinn3]

welcome  to the best forum,Toby,   good pic's.  are you gona make it run?  cheers,      vin

[Toby1]

Thanks Vinn3,

The aim is to get it going again. But first I want to find out more about it. I have found an image of the back cover (but not cover removed ) this dates it to around 1933. However I cannot find an image of a Smiths works with the escapement in the position as shown?. There is also a possible RAF connection as pencilled on the main back plate is RAF something?

Also there is a is a small label saying 'Bakelite clock ANFDT' googling this shows it in an equation for Purchasing Document Date.

So just starting the journey to find out more.

Best

Toby1.  

[vinn3]

keep us advisedon the search.   it should be an easy job to to get it up and running.   it might be a "military wall clock".      vin

[Toby1]

It might well be with more research?

[Lenj]

10 hours ago, Toby1 said:

It might well be with more research?

An RAF sector clock, plenty of info about these on the internet..

Len

[rodabod]

You get a lot of fake sector clocks. I'm not sure any ever existed with platform escapements.

Edited December 19, 2019 by rodabod

[Tmuir]

You beat me to it Rodabod, but atleast this one if its not genuine is atleast of the correct age.

Look closely at the dial to see if it looks like it matches the age of the rest of the clock, if it doesn't its probably not genuine.

If it is genuine it is well worth fixing as genuine sector clocks are very collectable.

[Toby1]

Thanks all,

I am not delusional about this hence my initial wish to just find out more about the movement. I can't believe that my image is the only one on the internet showing this escapement set up in a smiths clock. I thought it would have been easy to find more out, hence joining a clock forum to consult people better qualified than me.

The whole thing seems to have some gravitas though. Firstly there seems to be some age to it. It smells fusty the back plate holding screws have never been moved for some time, and the colour fading on the segments is uniform and not printed as a faded colour. Again in internet searching I cannot find even a replica or replacement dial of this size it is 8 inch across. RAF sector clocks seem to be 14 inch upwards. There is clearly a printed hole above the '18' this would fit with smiths astral clock movements used on sector clocks. If you were replicating a face for this clock why include that?

The other issue is the hands the RAF sector clocks I have seen have a straight minute hand and a tulip hour hand. These hands would not be hard to get so why not change them if you were making a replica? Also given the age pointers was this clock worth the effort, these clocks have not always been valuable as they are today. Then there is the old pencilled RAF something on the back plate - would you really state the obvious on a reproduction? The reference to a purchasing document with the ANFDT label also on the back is also baffling.

I find it interesting I cannot find very much about this particular piece and I am very open minded as to it's authenticity.

Best

Toby1

[Tmuir]

 

I'm leaning to not genuine as to wind it you need to remove it from the wall to wind it, all other sector clocks I've seen you wind from the front, but the hands are correct for the 1940s as I do have a picture of a 1945 RAF clock (not a sector clock) in bakelite case that has a winding knob that pokes out the bottom so you dont need to remove it from the wall to wind

[Toby1]

Thanks Tmuir,

You do not have to remove it from the wall to wind. The back plate when fixed to a wall hinges the whole clock from the top, this hinge assy can be seen in image 2 above. The small plate also shown in image 2 at the bottom locks this hinge for transporting?. You simply iift it up from the six o clock position to access the winder.

Also as I stated most clocks like this I have seen do have a winding knob sticking out at the bottom - this one does not.

Best

Toby1

[Toby1]

Resized

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Toby1
resize

[oldhippy]

What you have is a late R A F section clock. The older ones from the war time would have a  fusee movement. What you have is a Smiths 8 DAY movement with a platform escapement.  What gives it away is the style of the hands. They are original to the movement and are not modern. The clock might have been taken out of an old A T C hut.  This type of movement is common with smiths clocks. I have seen them in many types of cases from mantle clocks to kitchen clocks and wall clocks. The platforms varied from fully jeweled down to just the balance, they even made them with pin pallets. When it come's to cleaning pay attention to the platform for wear in the holes.    

[Toby1]

Thanks again for all replies,

As a consensus I am not skilled or knowledgeable enough to fix it. As I have said earlier it seems over wound but if  gently shaken runs for a minute or so.

So is it worth spending a hundred or so to get it properly serviced and repaired?

Also thank you for your comments oldhippy you seem on the side of genuine that would underpin my own thoughts, albeit not a control room sector clock a period piece with correct markings.nevertheless.

Toby1

[Toby1]

Something else I trolled up although thought a late sector clock I believe towards the end of the war sector clocks had two and a half minute interval sections as aircraft got faster to plot.

I believe the five minute intervals were from 1935 to 1943.

[Tmuir]

I would say yes its worth it if it's genuine.

Just a side note, there is no such thing as 'over wound'.

If the clock is wound up and not ticking it could be as simple as its gummed up and needs cleaning to having a serious problem.

If OldHippy says its genuine I would trust what he says.

[vinn3]

a cleaned and oiled main spring just might make it run.  vin

[rodabod]

My gut feeling is that it's a re-printed dial to add some value. That would explain why it has "RAF" pencilled on the back of the dial (why write it when it's printed on the dial?).

 

[oldhippy]

That's the original dial. It has staining if you look closely.  That is what I would expect to see. People write all sorts of thing on clocks, the even put sticky labels on them. If it has been through an auction house it could have been done then.  

[rodabod]

I’ll keep an open mind. I’ve seen so many fakes before that I always remain sceptical. 

Also, there are no broadarrow or similar government property marks to be seen. 

[Nucejoe]

On 12/20/2019 at 12:10 PM, oldhippy said:

That's the original dial. It has staining if you look closely.  That is what I would expect to see. People write all sorts of thing on clocks, the even put sticky labels on them. If it has been through an auction house it could have been done then.  

Amazing knowledge of Clocks, how you spot and interpret details and always with the relevent history.

Merry Christmas OH.        

[oldhippy]

All down to experience, around 30 years. I have handled and repaired/restored some wonderful pieces in my days.  

Wishing you a Happy Christmas & New Year

[Toby1]

Thank you for all the replies. I'll let you know when it's repaired.

Meanwhile seasons greetings and all the best for 2020.

Toby1