Tudor 2447 Timegrapher Results

[mzinski]

Hello, 

I’m currently attempting to clean up a 1964 Tudor Princess Oysterdate 7981 with a Tudor 2447 movement. I purchased it knowing I had to replace the stem and assuming a cleaning was in order. 
Well, it cleaned up nicely. On my inspection, I did not notice broken jewels, worn wheels, or otherwise. I did, however, notice the bottom cap jewel for the balance was worn and the Hairspring slightly misshapen (touching coils). I replaced both. There is very little information on this movement online. As I have been able to research, it appears this is a modified ETA 2369 with 18,000bph and lift angle of 51. 
Annoyingly, the beat error is regulated by turning the Hairspring collar - very tedious but I got it to an average of 0.3ms. 
on the timegrapher I am getting a very strange reading - a pattern of “X’s” every 8 seconds. It indicates the watch is losing 40 seconds a day but the reality is it’s gaining time (2-4 min per day). 
I replaced the escape wheel thinking something could be wrong there but the readings did not change. 
Can anyone advise on what I should be looking for? I’m a bit at a lose. 
Happy to post pictures of any part, please just let me know. 
Thanks in advance! 
 

Edited December 11, 2019 by mzinski

[clockboy]

I have never come across such a reading. I don't think the readings are from a timegrapher display. Is it the "Watch Tuner" app of a smart phone if so someone more familiar with this app might be able to decipher the reading. 

[mzinski]

1 minute ago, clockboy said:

I have never come across such a reading. I don't think the readings are from a timegrapher display. Is it the "Watch Tuner" app of a smart phone if so someone more familiar with this app might be able to decipher the reading. 

Yes, it is an iPhone app called Timegrapher. While it’s not a dedicated timegrapher, I have been able to use it to successfully and consistently regulate a wide variety of movements (7750, 2784, 2824, 2836, 7420, 1120, 3135, 1215, etc). Of all the movements timed on this app, this is the only one to produce such a strange result. 

[VWatchie]

Re-banking? Does it sound normal when listening to it?

[mzinski]

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Re-banking? Does it sound normal when listening to it?

I will give it a listen again tonite and respond. 
 

Is re-banking possible with a lower amplitude, 210-230? 

[nickelsilver]

Since it's regularly happening every 8 seconds I'm thinking a gearing problem; the 4th wheel has 8 teeth in its pinion, which will equate to 7.5 seconds per tooth "in action"- but it would be odd that all the teeth on that pinion or the 3rd wheel that drives it would be damaged and damaged equally. Though if for example the train bridge was removed with power on the watch the 3rd wheel teeth may have zipped accross another component raising burrs or something.

 

Is the train nice and free with the balance and fork out?

[mzinski]

48 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Since it's regularly happening every 8 seconds I'm thinking a gearing problem; the 4th wheel has 8 teeth in its pinion, which will equate to 7.5 seconds per tooth "in action"- but it would be odd that all the teeth on that pinion or the 3rd wheel that drives it would be damaged and damaged equally. Though if for example the train bridge was removed with power on the watch the 3rd wheel teeth may have zipped accross another component raising burrs or something.

 

Is the train nice and free with the balance and fork out?

I’ll pull the wheels and inspect them. 
 

The train is responsive and free. However, there is minimal recoil - even after two cleanings. Perhaps another cleaning. 

[nickelsilver]

1 minute ago, mzinski said:

I’ll pull the wheels and inspect them. 
 

The train is responsive and free. However, there is minimal recoil - even after two cleanings. Perhaps another cleaning. 

The train freedom test is a good one and should always be done, but even if free with backlash sometimes things change when everything is actually under power; do have a good look at the teeth of the 3rd wheel and 4th pinion.

[JohnR725]

It would be nice if you would give us timing results in another position as I assume you timed it dial down? So rotating into a crown position like crown down we can see if the results look the same. Then any time your graphical display doesn't look right then the numbers are not going to be correct either even if they look like valid numbers they probably aren't. Then one of the reasons we question year nifty app is in the past we've seen examples of bad timing results because the apps usually have inappropriate pickup devices to properly get the sounds from the watch to the app giving us goofy results.

Then for Rebanking I like the video below visually and audio is presented.

https://youtu.be/Rcqrb3_vin8

Then how are you cleaning the watch.

When you reassemble watch check the end shake of the wheels. It looks like from your bridge that it's only held in place by two screws it's possible that it's been bent down in the middle I just can't tell from the picture whether it has any support at the end or not.

[VWatchie]

14 hours ago, mzinski said:

I will give it a listen again tonite and respond. 
 

Is re-banking possible with a lower amplitude, 210-230? 

I haven't researched the topic of amplitude all that deeply but it wouldn't make any sense to me. For rebanking to occur I estimate that the amplitude would have reach somewhere in the neighborhood of 340°.

When rebanking occurs the graph and the stats of  a timing machine can go chaos-like and that's how I (likely incorrectly) interpreted the results of your timing machine at a glance.

Anyway, it's usually a good idea to listen to a movement as (with some practice) it can give some clues. My advice would be to read carefully what @nickelsilver and @JohnR725 have to say as they are both very knowledgeable.

Edited December 12, 2019 by VWatchie

[AndyHull]

I'm going to take a wild guess that this is a hairspring issue.

The coil may be touching/sticking every few seconds, this in turn may cause a sudden shift in amplitude, which then flattens back out, then as the amplitude recovers, the problem repeats.  What makes me think this is a likely candidate is that I can't see any gear that has the exact number of teeth/period required to cause such an stable effect. Rebanking would suggest a much higher amplitude than the one you are seeing, hence my thoughts that it is probably the oscillator, and in particular, the hairspring. 

Clean, demagnetize and carefully inspect the hairspring for flatness and concentricity.

EDIT: Also check the end shake.

Video the balance in operation, and play back slowly (1/16th of normal speed or less) and you may be able to spot  if I am correct.

Edited December 12, 2019 by AndyHull

[mzinski]

Okay, so here’s what I’ve got: 

- Took a vídeo slow motion of the balance wheel in action. I don’t notice any sticking but I will figure out how to post and link to it shortly for thoughts. 
- Hairspring appears to have a nice shape. 
- Each wheel in the train has a small amount of end shake. Nothing excessive. None lack a small amount of movement (or are tightly in there) 

- Wheels all seem to have their teeth in tact  

- Jewels appear clean, full, and with good holes. However i do wonder about the bottom pivot for the 3rd wheel  it looks like it’s a metal one. I’m having trouble seeing if that one is clean and structurally sound (see pic with the arrow)

- Clean, free movement of the train

- Listened to the movement - with my ear as I don’t have a proper rig to listen. To me I hear a pretty consistent ticking with the oddball double click. I also note I believe I’m hearing it tick strong to weaker to strong again. Not sure if that’s in my head or real...

Please take a look at the attached pictures. Let me know if you think I missed anything. I’m going to clean these pieces again, lubricate, and reassemble. I will test the free movement of the train as I go, try to achieve some recoil, and see what that gets me. I plan on also re-cleaning the Mainspring. I wonder if I over lubricated and it’s now slipping - would that be a possible culprit? 
I will post new timegrapher pics of dial up and down once I get thru this. 

Im happy to post more pics of any part you’d like to see more of if it helps. 
Thanks again! 
 

[mzinski]

On 12/11/2019 at 2:06 PM, JohnR725 said:

It would be nice if you would give us timing results in another position as I assume you timed it dial down? So rotating into a crown position like crown down we can see if the results look the same. Then any time your graphical display doesn't look right then the numbers are not going to be correct either even if they look like valid numbers they probably aren't. Then one of the reasons we question year nifty app is in the past we've seen examples of bad timing results because the apps usually have inappropriate pickup devices to properly get the sounds from the watch to the app giving us goofy results.

Then for Rebanking I like the video below visually and audio is presented.

https://youtu.be/Rcqrb3_vin8

Then how are you cleaning the watch.

When you reassemble watch check the end shake of the wheels. It looks like from your bridge that it's only held in place by two screws it's possible that it's been bent down in the middle I just can't tell from the picture whether it has any support at the end or not.

RE: Cleaning

Disassemble. US bath in cleaning fluid. Three US bathes in rinse. Heat dry. Peg wood jewels. Rodico and peg wood as required to clean anything not captured in that process. Gloved hands throughout. 

[dadistic]

Am I seeing correctly, is that escape wheel missing a pivot?

[jdm]

10 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Am I seeing correctly, is that escape wheel missing a pivot?

So it seems, and the other picture shows an indiscernible blob.

[AndyHull]

6 hours ago, mzinski said:

Jewels appear clean, full, and with good holes. However i do wonder about the bottom pivot for the 3rd wheel  it looks like it’s a metal one. I’m having trouble seeing if that one is clean and structurally sound (see pic with the arrow)

Are you sure that isn't a missing jewel.

How many jewels do you count?
How many should there be?

 

[vinn3]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:07 AM, nickelsilver said:

Since it's regularly happening every 8 seconds I'm thinking a gearing problem; the 4th wheel has 8 teeth in its pinion, which will equate to 7.5 seconds per tooth "in action"- but it would be odd that all the teeth on that pinion or the 3rd wheel that drives it would be damaged and damaged equally. Though if for example the train bridge was removed with power on the watch the 3rd wheel teeth may have zipped accross another component raising burrs or something.

 

Is the train nice and free with the balance and fork out?

     ther is a lot to be said for " the sound of a watch ticking" !   after that,  how good it keeps time.     vin

[mzinski]

3 hours ago, dadistic said:

Am I seeing correctly, is that escape wheel missing a pivot?

I thought it looked okay. 
 

[mzinski]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

So it seems, and the other picture shows an indiscernible blob.

Hi, thanks for your response. This was helpful in learning and gaining some help from the veterans and professionals here. 
FWIW I’m simply a hobbyist having fun and learning. Have not claimed to be anything I’m not. And I literally said I’m happy to provide more and better pics of anything to help see something. 
Instead of passive-aggressively replying it would have been far more beneficial and kind to simply say, “It’s hard to see ______, can you please add better pictures of ______?” If you find these help wanted post annoying, you always have the option of not replying or even reading. 
If I misread you reply, sorry. Forums can be hard to judge sometimes. 

[jdm]

51 minutes ago, mzinski said:

Instead of passive-aggressively replying it would have been far more beneficial and kind to simply say, “It’s hard to see ______, can you please add better pictures of ______?” If you find these help wanted post annoying, you always have the option of not replying or even reading. 
If I misread you reply, sorry. Forums can be hard to judge sometimes. 

Yes, you have much misread my reply which simply stated two simple facts. Don't blame forum misunderstandings when you are the first to use explicit aggressiveness. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by jdm

[saswatch88]

On 12/11/2019 at 1:05 PM, mzinski said:

Yes, it is an iPhone app called Timegrapher. While it’s not a dedicated timegrapher, I have been able to use it to successfully and consistently regulate a wide variety of movements (7750, 2784, 2824, 2836, 7420, 1120, 3135, 1215, etc). Of all the movements timed on this app, this is the only one to produce such a strange result. 

i have the timegrapher app is complete utter garbage, esp if you are using the headphones as the amp. spend $150 and get a cheap timegrapher 1000, they work well for the price and are suitable for the beginner.

the double clicking sound is it only in certain positions? worn down pallet pivots/balance staff, broken balance/pallet pivot jewels, bent staff, mis-shaped or untrue balance wheel can cause the safety roller to rub against the pallet in certain positions and can sound like double clicking. Does the extra click sound a little louder like metal on metal grinding?

[mzinski]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Yes, you have much misread my reply which simply stated two simple facts. Don't blame forum misunderstandings when you are the first to use explicit aggressiveness. 

Sorry, my mistake. 

[mzinski]

13 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

i have the timegrapher app is complete utter garbage, esp if you are using the headphones as the amp. spend $150 and get a cheap timegrapher 1000, they work well for the price and are suitable for the beginner.

Ordered, thanks! 

[jdm]

Just 

31 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

spend $150 and get a cheap timegrapher 1000

Currently $113 if one can accept a longer delivery time.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000111340270.html

[mzinski]

On 12/13/2019 at 5:56 AM, AndyHull said:

Are you sure that isn't a missing jewel.

How many jewels do you count?
How many should there be?

 

The movement indicates 21. 
 

I count 21. 
4 - balance staff

1 - impulse

2 - pallet fork

2 - pallet

2 - escape wheel

1 - second wheel

1 - third wheel

2 - intermediate wheel

6 - reversing wheels

All accounted for. 
 

Waiting on new Timegrapher to arrive. Update will be forthcoming once it arrives.