Jump to content
  • 0
Klassiker

Seiko 6R15 help with fault diagnosis

Question

My SARB17 has been playing up lately. The amplitude was low and it was losing minutes a day. I remembered it had got water inside some time ago (condensation on the glass) and although I reacted quickly and dried it out straight away, I thought I'd better take a look inside. Other than that, I'm not aware of anything happening to the watch, and it is only about 2 years old, and worn 2 or 3 days a week. It was running well until recently. I have stripped and cleaned the movement, inspected all the parts (absolutely no signs of rust) reassembled and lubricated, and was fully expecting a good result. Instead I have this:

DSC02028.thumb.JPG.afac85a8e524538154db1c7bf22a8df4.JPG

There does seem to be more friction in the wheel train than ideal. The pallet fork isn't flicking over with as much energy as I think it should. I will remove the barrel tomorrow and try to find where the drag is coming from. The amplitude is extremely low. The reading on the timegrapher above isn't to be trusted. I would estimate 80 degrees.

The only fault I found when I inspected the parts were poor surfaces on the balance cap jewels.

WIN_20191207_13_05_02_Pro.jpg.e1ee95c8a279063a62b4253d91f8d9fc.jpg

WIN_20191207_13_16_36_Pro.jpg.8b503063773de0f3649dd6271f5f7a3c.jpg

The first shows what appear to be manufacturing defects, and the second shows a dimple in the centre which could be wear. I'm afraid I don't know which is which. I mixed the up, and the dimensions are the same, according to my measurements. I have not closely inspected the balance pivots yet, but the balance swings freely when the pallet fork is removed.

I'd appreciate any advice on likely causes and where to start looking.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

The cap stones are the same both sides. I never seen such defects on the many I worked on. In some way it seems to me that is the domed side up, but it shouldn't. Before blaming the train check well the escapement, balance pivots, end-shake, hairsping shape, that there is no rubbing, etc.

Edited by jdm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I usually lay the cap jewel flat side down on a piece of clean paper and rub it back and forth a few times. This will get rid of the residual oil. Next a rinse with lighter fluid and it should be as clean as it can get.

Usually wear on cap jewels is pretty much centered in the middle of the jewel, I suspect its dried up oil. But if the watch is only 2 years old and never been serviced before it should be pretty much pristine! Its a puzzle all right.

Anilv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I have definitely photographed the flat sides. I have cleaned the stones repeatedly. Nothing changes. I am convinced that both stones are pitted. One is clearly worn, but not in a way you would expect from only two years of intermittent use, and the other is cratered like the surface of the moon, but fortunately not in the area of contact with the staff. I don't think the are contributing to the basic problem, and I have re-used them here, but I would like to replace them later.

@jdm I will check all of those things when I get time and report back, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
11 hours ago, Klassiker said:

... The pallet fork isn't flicking over with as much energy as I think it should ...

With a noisy movement and lazy pallet fork I'd first look the pallet fork and escape wheel pivots and jewels, be sure they are clean and correctly installed (yes, sometimes I've reinstalled the pallet and that did the trick), pallet fork jewels dry. If the pallet is not moving fast I don't think the main problem is oin the balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

How did you clean and what lubes did you use for the 3rd and escape wheel shock assemblies?

I cleaned in jars of lighter fluid, in a water bath, in a domestic ultrasonic machine, for 10 minutes. I am thinking that this has maybe left a sticky residue on pivots and bearings, so I plan to re-clean and rinse with isopropyl alcohol.

I didn't oil the escape wheel pivots at first, though I tried it later. It made no difference. I used Dr. Tillwich 1-3 (a fine watch oil for low-load pivots) on the 3rd. wheel. I used the same oil for the balance, and Möbius 941/2 on the pallets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
3 hours ago, Klassiker said:

... I plan to re-clean and rinse with isopropyl alcohol ...

You probably know it, IPA melts the shellac, so do not rinse the balance wheel nor the pallet fork in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
7 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

Not familiar with Dr. Tillwich oils so can't comment on that. In my experience, lighter fluid + ultrasonic leaves parts far from spotless. Now did the cleaning process include dismantling of the 3rd and escape wheel shock assemblies? 

Would you suggest as a rinse in something else after cleaning in lighter fluid, or a different cleaning solution altogether? I used One-Dip on the balance, but lighter fluid on the cap jewels and settings. The faces of the cap jewels I polished on cigarette paper, but if the lighter fluid has left a residue, it is still on the hole jewels.

I did not remove and clean the 3rd and escape wheel shock assemblies. I was advised not to, but as long as it's not an order of magnitude trickier than the balance shocks, I would be prepared to have a go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
12 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

@aac58 I have read many times on this forum that soaking for several minutes in isopropyl alcohol does not dissolve or soften shellac to a noticeable degree. Have you had direct experience of shellac being affected by rinsing in it?

No, I haven't because I don't do it. After cleaning I dry everything with a hair dryer, then I take the pallet and balance out and rinse the remaining parts in IPA. I'm a newbie but haven't had problems with this workflow, and I'm getting amplitude around 220º with very vintage Seikos (usually 700x, 6119 and 6309)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I use purpose made watch cleaning fluids and rinse fluids. I find these to be the most effective. In any case I find properly disassembly and cleaning of the 3rd and escape shock assemblies to be an indispensable step. In my experience Japanese movements are especially sensitive to proper cleaning and lubrication so you'll want to get every nook and crany. I do achieve around 300 amplitude with these but only after very meticulous cleaning and precise oiling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

The consensus seems to be lack of cleanliness as the most likely cause. I will strip, inspect and clean the whole thing again, and this time I will remove and clean those two small cap stones. I have some Sambol Platina 1:20, which is an alcohol and ammonia based fluid, but had stopped using it because it's mixed with 20 parts water. It also leaves streaks and spots.  I will use it this time and rinse in alcohol to remove the residues and water.

Thanks to everyone who tried to help so far. I'll report back when I've made some progress.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
20 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

I have some Sambol Platina 1:20, which is an alcohol and ammonia based fluid, but had stopped using it because it's mixed with 20 parts water. It also leaves streaks and spots.  I will use it this time and rinse in alcohol to remove the residues and water.

I don't see the need for that. Ammonia is to remove oxidation and make parts shine, which is not your issue. To remove oils completely the best is refined benzine (petroleoum ether). IPA is safe as long you don't exceed with time, say 5m. Beside, Seiko uses synthetic cement for the end stud and impulse pin, not shellac. Again, I recommend that you check well balance end-shake and escapement. It seems to me you have good optical equipment to judge on that as well pivots/jewels cleanliness. The watch was running well before, you have to identify and correct something that happened during disassembly or reassembly. 

Edited by jdm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

@jdm Thanks again, much appreciated. Until I get stuck in and do some testing and investigating I am just guessing. Maybe I have put something back upside down (done that on a 7750), or got a big hair in there somewhere. There was a fair bit of waxy something or other on some surfaces when I opened it up, so who knows? I will check everything that has been suggested so far and report back when I find something worth reporting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

As reported in jdm's 6R15 Service Walk Through thread, on disassembling the 3rd wheel and escape wheel jewel assemblies, I did find some dirt in one of the holes. As I am stull struggling to get pegwood to a fine enough point to get into holes like this, I used a hair from my dog. Maybe not haute horologie, but it got the muck out.

I cleaned the fast end of the train and the escapement a second time in lighter fuel in the ultrasonic machine, then rinsed everything in pure isopropyl alcohol. I checked every moving part under the microscope (not a stereo microscope, but I have a Chinese digital one which serves my requirements well) and found otherwise only clean surfaces with no wear. Well, that is apart from another dimple in the centre of the escape wheel cap stone. I took particular care to use the correct oils and not to over-oil. In the end, I'm not sure that the dirt I found was the only cause of the low amplitude, but it was probably a significant factor.

In any case, the watch is working well now. I'm not getting more than 260 degrees of amplitude, but the traces are clean and consistent. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...