Chinese clone horia tool

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

spending nearly £1,800 (including shipping, 25 % Swedish tax, and import fees) for the Horia non-lever press and the set with 24 pushers and 24 anvils instead of £142 (including shipping, 25 % Swedish tax, and import fees) for the Chinese clone is untenable for a hobbyist. However, for a professional shop where the tool is used by several repairers on a daily basis it is a different story.

Yes I know it seems like you can only buy Chinese or brand-new but was there ever another way?

So yes I know this only represents .0001% of all sales but there's eBay where you might pick up something used. Depending upon where you live in the universe there are various horological sales where sometimes tools show up. Or in rare occasions there's even horological schools that go out of business in a sizable quantity of tools to open the market at a somewhat good price. Yes in the US there was a school that liquidated and they had a heck of a lot of tools that went on auction that somewhat good prices were to be had.

[VWatchie]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:24 PM, VWatchie said:

Getting the Horia press and the set with 24 pushers and 24 anvils from Cousins would be a quick option, but way too expensive, approx. £1910 with tax and UPS shipping. There was a pretty attractive offer on eBay for approx. £420 (Global shipping program) but it only had the set with 8 pushers and three anvils. Or, I could go AliExpress and get a Horia clone set having 24 pushers and 24 anvils for approx.

 

[Paul80]

This one is supposed to have sleel winding armatures (Not sure of the real name, the shaft the spring winds around)

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002838742309.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117ecb2d4015d8eb7ec620bb7e87d21aaa3f7a1b&gclid=

Just had a bit of a splashout on Aliexpress and had the following 3 items delivered, and overall I have been quite surprised by the overall quality, especially the jewling tools as seen a few posts above and staking set.  The back remover does what its advertised to do and can't be faulted yet ether, although I thought I had ordered the one with a wooden base but got the one with a plastic base, both were the same price and all 3 were £300 plus postage, a fraction of the Swiss item prices.  which I could never have afforded.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000261581571.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117e6e85e1442517733b31ac61e7c411be7b08aa&gclid=

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000394566891.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117e6e85e1442517733b31ac61e7c411be7b08aa&gclid=

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000394753607.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117e6e85e1442517733b31ac61e7c411be7b08aa&gclid=

 

Next on my list are the following

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002899624036.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117e6e85e1442517733b31ac61e7c411be7b08aa&gclid=

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000316385317.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117ecb2d4015d8eb7ec620bb7e87d21aaa3f7a1b&gclid=

I do wonder with some of these tools, as they are so close to Swiss version in style and design, are they copies or are the Swiss pulling a fast one, having there tools made in China and just claiming Swiss made on the branding.

I know with the well known Auto Oiler that all the parts are interchanable with the Bergeon version. Which to me suggests its more than just a simple copy ?

[GuyMontag]

11 hours ago, Paul80 said:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000394753607.html?browser_id=02a8fdec4c0e47f397330c404f25a73a&aff_trace_key=&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=00117e6e85e1442517733b31ac61e7c411be7b08aa&gclid=

 

 

I bought that case opener too. I kept running into an issue where when one of the chucks was fully engaged in the case back slot the other chuck was about 1 mm out of the slot. I had to disassemble the top part of the unit as when it was manufactured they didn't align the two chuck holders symmetrically and realign them. Pretty easy fix and it now works perfectly.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by GuyMontag

[ifibrin]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:22 AM, nickelsilver said:

Only thing I can reply to this and I'm in the minority, is the lever type is less sensitive  or precise etc. For me the lever type are more precise due to some trigonometric function. I find the lever type "handier" as you can (in real world) set a stop and have both hands steadying the piece while a palm hits the lever.

 

Probably just being old, but I'm a practical  person.

Do you think you could take a photo of what you mean? I’m curious how you get the lever type tool to work better for you.

[VWatchie]

A shortcoming that I recently discovered with my AliExpress Chinese Horia jeweling tool clone is that three of the 24 pump pushers have a diameter that is about 0.01mm too wide. This is the kind of flaw I believe you can expect when you choose to buy Chinese pirated copies. In no way does it render the tool useless with these three pump pushers, but it is somewhat inconvenient.

21 of my pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.98mm

Three of the pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.99mm

The pump pushers that are 0.01mm too wide can not be easily pushed into the receiving hole in the upper part of the tool but get stuck a little before they reach the bottom of the tool hole. It feels as if the shaft of the pump pusher is completely inserted into the tool hole, but when you press the jewel, it does not move. Instead, it is the pump pusher that is pressed deeper into the tool hole.

Since I did not understand what was going on, it was driving me crazy the other day (having tried to adjust a jewel for the sixth time) and that's why I decided to find out what was going on. In my case, I found out that it is the pump pushers that have the diameters 130, 190, and 260 that have a too wide shaft.

Since it is only a minor shortcoming, it is still possible to push the pump pushers all the way into the tool hole, but it is not possible to do with just the fingers, you must push the pump pusher all the way towards one of the anvils. For this purpose, I choose the widest (300) anvil as can be seen in the above picture.

A disadvantage of this procedure is that it is also not possible to detach the pump pusher with only the fingers. Instead, you can use a pair of pliers with a piece of plastic in between and then swing the pump pusher back and forth sideways as you pull the pump pusher out of the tool hole. A piece of Rodico can be good to use to prevent the pump pusher from hitting the lower part of the tool.

Apart from this, I am still very happy with this tool and think that it’s totally worth the money.

I hope that the pictures together with my description were understandable. It felt important to share this information if you intend to buy the AliExpress version of this tool. Anyway, if you have the money, the original Horia tool surely have more precision.
 

Edited April 29, 2022 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

A shortcoming that I recently discovered with my AliExpress Chinese Horia jeweling tool clone is that three of the 24 pump pushers have a diameter that is about 0.01mm too wide. This is the kind of flaw I believe you can expect when you choose to buy Chinese pirated copies. In no way does it render the tool useless with these three pump pushers, but it is somewhat inconvenient.

21 of my pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.98mm

Three of the pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.99mm

The pump pushers that are 0.01mm too wide can not be easily pushed into the receiving hole in the upper part of the tool but get stuck a little before they reach the bottom of the tool hole. It feels as if the shaft of the pump pusher is completely inserted into the tool hole, but when you press the jewel, it does not move. Instead, it is the pump pusher that is pressed deeper into the tool hole.

Since I did not understand what was going on, it was driving me crazy the other day (having tried to adjust a jewel for the sixth time) and that's why I decided to find out what was going on. In my case, I found out that it is the pump pushers that have the diameters 130, 190, and 260 that have a too wide shaft.

Since it is only a minor shortcoming, it is still possible to push the pump pushers all the way into the tool hole, but it is not possible to do with just the fingers, you must push the pump pusher all the way towards one of the anvils. For this purpose, I choose the widest (300) anvil as can be seen in the above picture.

A disadvantage of this procedure is that it is also not possible to detach the pump pusher with only the fingers. Instead, you can use a pair of pliers with a piece of plastic in between and then swing the pump pusher back and forth sideways as you pull the pump pusher out of the tool hole. A piece of Rodico can be good to use to prevent the pump pusher from hitting the lower part of the tool.

Apart from this, I am still very happy with this tool and think that it’s totally worth the money.

I hope that the pictures together with my description were understandable. It felt important to share this information if you intend to buy the AliExpress version of this tool. Anyway, if you have the money, the original Horia tool surely have more precision.
 

Hiya vw I missed a horia on ebay a few months ago for £175 I was tempted but there where no pumps or pushers. Is hand pressure enough on the anvil to extract and install jewels without having a lever? 

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is hand pressure enough on the anvil to extract and install jewels without having a lever?

100 % yes! The Horia type without a lever is very easy and precise to use. The only potential problem is you might overshoot and press out the jewel, so you need to go easy on the screw. Little by little and a bit back and forth does it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

100 % yes! The Horia type without a lever is very easy and precise to use. The only potential problem is you might overshoot and press out the jewel, so you need to go easy on the screw. Little by little and a bit back and forth does it.

I'm swaying towards the Chinese clone. There are some resonable second hand genuine  horias on ebay but they rarely have the anvils and pushers. I think it's going to be my next toy . Thanks vw 

[VWatchie]

12 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm swaying towards the Chinese clone. There are some resonable second hand genuine  horias on ebay but they rarely have the anvils and pushers. I think it's going to be my next toy . Thanks vw 

If you get yourself the same Horia clone that I bought and it works as well as mine, you will be satisfied. However, just do not expect that everything will be 100 % perfect but more like 95 % perfect. Anyway, when you can save approx. £1750 compared to the original Horia tool it's basically a no-brainer. At least if you are not a professional.

[gbyleveldt]

9 hours ago, VWatchie said:

If you get yourself the same Horia clone that I bought and it works as well as mine, you will be satisfied. However, just do not expect that everything will be 100 % perfect but more like 95 % perfect. Anyway, when you can save approx. £1750 compared to the original Horia tool it's basically a no-brainer. At least if you are not a professional.

I also had a similar issue with the clone tool that some of the pushers were a little oversize. I should actually check and compare if it’s the same ones you had an issue with. That being said, I’ve already used it twice to replace jewels and it worked a charm. Someone should do a video on using this type (hint, hint @VWatchie), it took me a while to figure out exactly how to use it.
 

Edited April 30, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[Tore]

No problem with my 130,190,260 and the others pushers on my chinese horia clone.

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tore

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/29/2022 at 4:12 PM, VWatchie said:

A shortcoming that I recently discovered with my AliExpress Chinese Horia jeweling tool clone is that three of the 24 pump pushers have a diameter that is about 0.01mm too wide. This is the kind of flaw I believe you can expect when you choose to buy Chinese pirated copies. In no way does it render the tool useless with these three pump pushers, but it is somewhat inconvenient.

21 of my pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.98mm

Three of the pump pusher shafts have a diameter of about 3.99mm

The pump pushers that are 0.01mm too wide can not be easily pushed into the receiving hole in the upper part of the tool but get stuck a little before they reach the bottom of the tool hole. It feels as if the shaft of the pump pusher is completely inserted into the tool hole, but when you press the jewel, it does not move. Instead, it is the pump pusher that is pressed deeper into the tool hole.

Since I did not understand what was going on, it was driving me crazy the other day (having tried to adjust a jewel for the sixth time) and that's why I decided to find out what was going on. In my case, I found out that it is the pump pushers that have the diameters 130, 190, and 260 that have a too wide shaft.

Since it is only a minor shortcoming, it is still possible to push the pump pushers all the way into the tool hole, but it is not possible to do with just the fingers, you must push the pump pusher all the way towards one of the anvils. For this purpose, I choose the widest (300) anvil as can be seen in the above picture.

A disadvantage of this procedure is that it is also not possible to detach the pump pusher with only the fingers. Instead, you can use a pair of pliers with a piece of plastic in between and then swing the pump pusher back and forth sideways as you pull the pump pusher out of the tool hole. A piece of Rodico can be good to use to prevent the pump pusher from hitting the lower part of the tool.

Apart from this, I am still very happy with this tool and think that it’s totally worth the money.

I hope that the pictures together with my description were understandable. It felt important to share this information if you intend to buy the AliExpress version of this tool. Anyway, if you have the money, the original Horia tool surely have more precision.
 

What are the chances of you reducing the diameters of these Watchie ?

[JohnR725]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What are the chances of you reducing the diameters of these Watchie

if you have a watchmaker's lathe reducing shouldn't be a problem. I suppose if you're really careful with some sandpaper

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/30/2022 at 7:32 PM, gbyleveldt said:

I also had a similar issue with the clone tool that some of the pushers were a little oversize. I should actually check and compare if it’s the same ones you had an issue with. That being said, I’ve already used it twice to replace jewels and it worked a charm. Someone should do a video on using this type (hint, hint @VWatchie), it took me a while to figure out exactly how to use it.
 

Just ordered from AliExpress.  Been waiting for a good Swiss one to crop up on epay but they often have pushers, anvils missing and if not then really expensive. Sorted now though. Thanks Watchie and Gert for your info on this.

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

if you have a watchmaker's lathe reducing shouldn't be a problem. I suppose if you're really careful with some sandpaper

Thanks john, i just wondered why Watchie hadn't tweeked them to fit better.

[Paul80]

I checked al of the pushers on my Chinese set after reading the issue VWatchie had and there was no fit issues with any of them, so they do get it right so fingers crossed yours will be fine as well Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

Interesting topic. I'm also looking to buy my first jeweling tool.

I'm undecided between an original/vintage Seitz press (in good condition) or the Chinese Horia...

I guess most seem to agree that the Horia is a bit more "controlled" when setting jewels. Whereas the Seitz lever needs an additional hand. On the other hand, it seems that the Seitz has some additional functions, particularly reaming. I don't plan on getting two tools...

What would your advice be?

 

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Knebo said:

I don't plan on getting two tools...

Neither did I 

11 hours ago, Knebo said:

What would your advice be?

Well, if you insist on only having one jewelling tool I'd go for the Seitz. As you say, it has the reamers, but it only has a couple of anvils, and that is oftentimes a problem. However, some of the larger flat Seitz pushers can double as anvils, so it isn't all that bad. So yes, go for the Seitz!

Anyway, make sure you get a set in as good a condition as possible with as few missing pushers as possible, and make sure the handle for the reamers is included.

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Neither did I 

Hahaha, yea... I can see this hobby going out of hand on my side too 

[Malocchio]

I bought just a Seitz frame for reaming. I had to buy the spindle and reamers separately but they're not that expensive and you could only buy the sizes you need. For jeweling I use the Chinese "Horia". 

[Knebo]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

As you say, it has the reamers, but it only has a couple of anvils, and that is oftentimes a problem.

Hmm ok. Which other tool would be better for reaming? The Chinese staking set (Bergeon 5285 clone) is not for reaming, is it? 

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

Hmm ok. Which other tool would be better for reaming?

As I mentioned, in practice, it's not such a big deal. I think you might find this illustrated post interesting:

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/13161-chinese-clone-horia-tool/page/2/#comment-173046

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

The Chinese staking set (Bergeon 5285 clone) is not for reaming, is it? 

I have no idea, but there are definitely options (there always are). Anyway, unless you plan to work with really old and worn watches, the likelihood that you will need the reamers is pretty small. However, the probability is significantly greater that you will need to replace broken jewels and adjust the end-shake.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well, if you insist on only having one jewelling tool I'd go for the Seitz. As you say, it has the reamers

ideally for horological tool purchasing they should be purchased over time when it's convenient to do so and you find an outstanding purchase price. Like for instance if you look at Seitz tools on eBay price ranges from acceptable to somebody has dreams of retiring on one tool sales but I've seen some outstanding purchase prices but you have to wait over time. The problem becomes if you need a tool now then that's the problem

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

unless you plan to work with really old and worn watches, the likelihood that you will need the reamers is pretty small. However, the probability is significantly greater that you will need to replace broken jewels and adjust the end-shake.

this is a mostly true statements. The problem would be as if the original jewel was not the exact size of the replacement jewel. Then he would definitely need  a reamer.

It does presented  interesting challenge of if you're only purchasing one. Personally all I use my Seitz tool for is the reamer. As I find using it for pushing jewels adjusting end shake not as nice as the other one. That would explain why it work this week both tools were out on my bench for quite a while no replacing balance jewels is not a simple process. So it did require both tools and with the bonus of we have the insanely expensive Seitz in the wooden box I could make use of the bushing assortments they have bushings that you can use to allow you to use a smaller jewel in the case of the problem I had the original was burnished in and to get it far enough out for something to hold it became way too big for the balance jewels we had. So this means putting in the bushing reaming it out and putting in the jewel

oh but this is also vintage conceivably on modern watches you may build get by which is pushing to jewel in and out if you're lucky in which case I don't like the Seitz tool for pushing things typically.

then just in case you don't have the Seitz manual I've attached that you can see what it's supposed to come with.

Seitz

 

 

Seitz book.pdf

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

if you look at Seitz tools on eBay price ranges from acceptable to somebody has dreams of retiring on one tool sales

Surprisingly, more people than one might think do try this stunt. I once very politely tried to tell a seller of an old used box of Seitz jewels that his asking price might be "a bit too optimistic". He immediately became very upset, told me he knew exactly the value of his box - 10 per cent or so below Cousin's asking price but with several jewels missing - and he'd let me know that he would now block me on eBay. People are funny creatures!

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I've seen some outstanding purchase prices but you have to wait over time. The problem becomes if you need a tool now then that's the problem

I share the exact same experience. If you wait long enough (sometimes for as long as a few years) that perfect offer somehow magically appears. Yes, not having the needed tool can be extremely frustrating and the only thing to compensate for it is most often to overpay.

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The problem would be as if the original jewel was not the exact size of the replacement jewel. Then he would definitely need  a reamer.

Indeed, or a large selection of jewels, which is definitely more expensive than a Horia clone jewelling tool. Anyway, for a beginning enthusiast both the Seitz and the Horia tool will take you a long way. I was happy with my Seitz for adjusting the end-shake and replacing jewels until I got my Horia tool. Now, the only reason I would use the Seitz would be to use the reamers.

[nickelsilver]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:03 PM, Knebo said:

Interesting topic. I'm also looking to buy my first jeweling tool.

I'm undecided between an original/vintage Seitz press (in good condition) or the Chinese Horia...

I guess most seem to agree that the Horia is a bit more "controlled" when setting jewels. Whereas the Seitz lever needs an additional hand. On the other hand, it seems that the Seitz has some additional functions, particularly reaming. I don't plan on getting two tools...

What would your advice be?

 

I use lever type tools (Favorite, Chatons SA, Horia) for everything, and I have several of the screw-type (micrometric) Horia tools. I just find it easier and faster for the way I work. I do push in lots of pins and tubes and such doing prototype work; I like being able to come down in contact with the lever then raise the micrometer stop to touch, then descend and push- I think there's more feel. But both tools are great. True that with a lever type tool you can ream and drill and such with the appropriate spindles too. I know many pros who couldn't live without the screw-type Horia tool; it's all a matter of preference.

 

But if you just want to get one, then a secondhand Seitz or Favorite is a good choice. I prefer the Favorite as it uses straight sided reamers held in a collet in their spindle, and a complete set will have several collets with sizes appropriate for holding drills. Seitz uses a taper fit to hold the reamers. Horia is like Favorite, with the collet holding spindle. If you have a Seitz the Horia spindle will fit if you want to have that too- the price is reasonable, but the Schaublin P4.5 collets are pretty pricy.

 

I also collect pushers and stumps, and often make them for special jobs as well. Pic is of the drawer for those (main workbench drawer). It's messy but I know where everything is!