Chinese clone horia tool

[praezis]

Berg... did the trick.

Frank

[VWatchie]

On 12/9/2019 at 1:59 AM, AP1875 said:

Next problem.... what is best best way to measure the inside diameter of a jewel, they're so small

 

On 3/2/2020 at 8:18 PM, AP1875 said:

1. As i can't take a measurement, is the only way to achieve the correct end shake placing the movement back together and keep taking it apart until the end shake feels right?

For your first question, the best method IMO would be to use a "Seitz jewel gauge tool". It looks like this and can often be found on eBay.

To use it, find the jewel in the gauge having a hole where the pivot of the wheel can be tilted about 5 degrees, and there's your inside diameter. Unfortunately, this little gauge helper is about two times the cost of your Chinese Horia clone tool, but in my opinion extremely convenient, and perhaps even necessary.

For your second question, the way I do it is one wheel at the time. That is, before starting the assembly of the watch, I mount one train wheel (on the otherwise bare main plate) and the train wheel bridge, test the shake (I actually use my stereo microscope to assess the shake visually as well), adjust the shake if necessary, repeat the testing and adjusting until I'm satisfied, and then I move on to the next train wheel, and so on. Yes, it is a rather cumbersome method, but I'm beginning to develop a good feel for the correct shake, so eventually I'll be able to determine if any end shake adjustments will be necessary even before taking the movement apart (unless being excessively dirty or having excessively dried oils).

So, now I have some question for you. Are you still satisfied with your Horia clone Chinese jeweling tool? Worth the money? Would you recommend it?

The problem with the Seitz jewelling tool, that I have and overall am very happy with, is the anvils. The few anvils available are sometimes just too big or too small. Does anyone know if the Horia pushers and and anvils fit the Seitz jewelling tool? 4 mm versions?

Edited July 26, 2021 by VWatchie

[clockboy]

What I worry about Chinese tools is what is the quality of the material used to make them. I suppose if they are only being used occasionally then they might be OK.

[Noho]

On 12/8/2019 at 2:36 AM, JohnR725 said:

Then for the Seitz versus Horia tool? if you're going to insert new jewels you're going to have to acquire the Seitz tool as it has the reamers that you're going to need. Then it will let you push the jewels in so one tool does it all. But the Horia tool is so much nicer for pushing the jewels and adjusting end shake. So the absolute best world would be to have both of them.

It looks like Horia has a set of reamers and a set of broaches. Would those make the Horia usable to ream the holes ?

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/jewel-tool-set-15-horia-broach-reamers-horia-jewelling-tool-hj132

[nickelsilver]

1 minute ago, Noho said:

It looks like Horia has a set of reamers and a set of broaches. Would those make the Horia usable to ream the holes ?

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/jewel-tool-set-15-horia-broach-reamers-horia-jewelling-tool-hj132

When most people say "Horia tool" they are referring to the micrometric screw- type tool. But they also make a lever style tool similar to Seitz, although it's about 50x nicer; Seitz (except for the earliest models) are aluminum, where the Horia, as well as Favorite and Chatons SA are all cast iron.

 

Anyway- with the lever type tools you can take out the spindle that accepts the pushers, and in most cases other than Seitz there is another spindle that takes little collets, this will accept the reamers that Horia offers. Horia makes them in two styles, one is a D-type single lip cutting reamer, like Seitz, the other is 5 sided broach style (Favorite used this type). Both work fine, and will open holes to precisely 0.01mm smaller than standard jewel diameters for a proper friction fit.

[Noho]

Thanks for your feedback. So if i understand correctly, the micrometer-type wont be suitable for reaming, and the lever type tool has more uses though being less nice than the micrometer ?

[nickelsilver]

12 minutes ago, Noho said:

Thanks for your feedback. So if i understand correctly, the micrometer-type wont be suitable for reaming, and the lever type tool has more uses though being less nice than the micrometer ?

Yes, the micrometer style can't be used with other spindles, it's just the micrometer spindle. I personally find the lever tools the most useful for all work; I have micrometer screw type, and lever types, and I use the lever type for everything. I find that it's just as precise for pressing in jewels and whatever other press work, and then of course is useful with the collet holding spindle, which can not only hold reamers but drills and taps as well. I have even made shaped punches, like a triangle for example, and held them in the collet holder to punch holes for triangular studs.

[JohnR725]

42 minutes ago, Noho said:

It looks like Horia has a set of reamers and a set of broaches. Would those make the Horia usable to ream the holes ?

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/jewel-tool-set-15-horia-broach-reamers-horia-jewelling-tool-hj132

the problem with the link is it's misleading as what is it for? In other words what role does this fit. Understand the problem the link below will take is the website of the company who makes the tool notice they make lots of tools.

to understand what I believe that cutters are used for the second link. Dreadfully expensive probably really nice though.

https://www.horia.ch/en/index.html

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools/Jewelling-tools-in-boxes.html

 

[Noho]

That's the thing. Those are lovely tools but very expensive for such a dedicated tool.

Im considering to get a jewelling tool, and was thinking of the horia micrometer type. However, even though i dont intend to use the reaming feature in the near future, this lack of functionality is kinda annoying.

Might consider their lever type then..

[VWatchie]

Does anyone know if these Horia anvils fit in the (cast iron?) Seitz Jewelling tool shown below? Thanks!

[nickelsilver]

3 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Does anyone know if these Horia anvils fit in the (cast iron?) Seitz Jewelling tool shown below? Thanks!

Yes, Seitz, Horia, Favorite, and Chatons SA (and other too I'm sure) all use 4mm anvil "feet". I have a mix of all those brands, as well as anvils from my staking too and use them all in my Horia. Many shop made ones too!

 

One little thing- Some tools have the 4mm hole extremly precisely made, like spot-on 4mm, and some anvils are a little sloppy on their 4mm diameter. So an anvil that measures 4.005mm might stick in a tool with a very precise hole. And- I have heard and seen that some new production Horia pushers and anvils are particularly sloppy on diameter, usually a little on the big side. That might have been a glitch that happened on a few batches, or, maybe they are paying less attention these days, but if you buy new, measure, and if it's off send it back and say why.

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

fit in the (cast iron?) Seitz Jewelling

it would probably be helpful to measure the hole size? That is because some more lurking in the house is the cast-iron one and the newer one that's cast out of unknown metallic substance. So the original one the base hole size was different.

measuring one of mine it's 4 mm

on the other hand it's easy to confirm at the link below. if you look at the variety of tools they have the top spindle is either 3 mm or 4 mm . But looks like all the bases are 4 mm

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools/Jewelling-tools/Jewelling-tool-spindle-hole-3-00-mm.html

 

 

 

 

[Tore]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Does anyone know if these Horia anvils fit in the (cast iron?) Seitz Jewelling tool shown below? Thanks!

 

[Tore]

This Seitz is made of aluminium isn it?

 

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, Tore said:

This Seitz is made of aluminium isn it?

there's two of them but I'm aware of. I would get you a picture but I have to figure out what I did with mine. I have a habit of not always putting things back where they belong and they go missing so around here somewhere. The older ones are made out of iron it's very very heavy. The newer ones or newer than the iron one is cast out of something that's light in weight. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of aluminum it's also because it's hollow inside versus the other one that solid

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Tore said:

This Seitz is made of aluminium isn it?

I don't know. I just assumed cast iron by the look of it. Anyway, stripped from the spindle and handle it weighs in at about 0.5 kg. Not heavy and not light so I would guess perhaps aluminium!?

That reminds me of my physics teacher, Arne Söderqvist, (many, many years ago) who asked us: "Why do Americans say aluminum instead of aluminium?" No one knew the answer, so he explained to us that "it wasn't the smartest people who emigrated to the USA". I still think that's pretty funny! Apologies to any US WRT:ers!

[VWatchie]

On 7/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, JohnR725 said:

The older ones are made out of iron it's very very heavy

 

On 7/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, JohnR725 said:

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of aluminum it's also because it's hollow inside versus the other one that solid

So, probably mine (the one in the picture) is made of aluminium (or "something that's light in weight"). It's not "very, very heavy", and it's hollow on the inside.

Edited July 29, 2021 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

On 7/27/2021 at 11:13 AM, nickelsilver said:

And- I have heard and seen that some new production Horia pushers and anvils are particularly sloppy on diameter, usually a little on the big side.

I got myself a single Horia anvil (approx. £28 with taxes and shipping) to complement my Seitz set, and you're right the diameter was on the big side and wouldn't fit. Because I was impatient, I tried to adjust the diameter myself, which ended up destroying the anvil (I'm too embarrassed to reveal any details). I should have listened to your advice and sent it back, but now it's too late.

Anyway, the other day I needed to adjust the third wheel end-shake on a Unitas 6380 but I couldn't get any of my Seitz anvils to fit under the bridge or on the main plate. I felt extremely frustrated thinking about that I would likely have to order a Horia jeweling tool and then have to wait for a many days, weeks, or maybe even months.

Trying to come up with an alternative solution I placed the train wheel bridge on the large non-holed Seitz anvil but when I pressed the jewel the whole bridge gave way because it is quite thin. So, I decided to bite the bullet and order a Horia jeweling tool.

Getting the Horia press and the set with 24 pushers and 24 anvils from Cousins would be a quick option, but way too expensive, approx. £1910 with tax and UPS shipping. There was a pretty attractive offer on eBay for approx. £420 (Global shipping program) but it only had the set with 8 pushers and three anvils. Or, I could go AliExpress and get a Horia clone set having 24 pushers and 24 anvils for approx. £170 including shipping and VAT. None of these options felt particularly attractive.

In the process of trying to determine what to buy, it suddenly occurred to me that maybe the Seitz flat pushers could double as anvils!?!?! Note that I consider it a small miracle that the thought even occurred to me, Ha-ha!

It worked perfectly! I haven't fully examined all possible combinations of flat pushers and pump pushers, but at least the two largest flat pushers can double as anvils. Perhaps this is why the Seitz set has so few dedicated anvils!?

Anyway, I still decided to order the Chinese Horia clone having 24 pushers and 24 anvils. It will likely take a couple of months before it is delivered. It would seem most reviews are positive but I've also read I should expect a few of the pushers and anvils to be poorly done. Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed and until then I believe the Seitz flat pushers will cover most situations.

Edited October 16, 2021 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

A couple of weeks ago, or so, I got my AliExpress Chinese Horia jeweling tool clone having 24 pushers and 24 anvils. So, it took approx. a month for the package to arrive. That's a lot less than I had expected. Another pleasant surprise was that it wasn't delivered from China but from the Netherlands (another EU state), so no additional fees had to be paid. Yippee! Anyway, it wasn't until today I had a chance to take a really close look and give it a try.

Here're some pictures... (Click to zoom in!)

Unlike the Seitz jeweling tool this tool does not have a "threaded cup" to catch the jewels pressed out all the way

Anvil bottom-side

Anvil top-side

Pump pusher

Pump pusher bottom-side (spring held in by screw having a slot)

Pump pusher bottom side (spring held in by a hexagonal screw)

Overall, I must say everything feels very well made and exceeded my expectations by a margin. Why some pump pushers uses a normal screw and some a hexagonal screw I have no idea, and I didn't try to remove any of them. The screws look like they could be made of plastic and they don't look all that nice. I don't know what the original Horia pump pushers look like, but the Seitz pump pushers are, is this respect, of a much better design.

I measured the diameter of five randomly selected pump pushers and they all had the given diameter minus approx. 5/100 mm, which of course is necessary to make them pass through the holes for the jewels in the plates and bridges.

I also measure the foot of a few randomly selected anvils and they all came in at 3.99 mm.

So, as an added bonus the anvils and the pump pushers fit perfectly (near zero shake) in my Seitz jeweling tool (and in the clone tool) as well. 

Nevertheless, after having adjusted just a few jewels I already prefer this type of jeweling tool. With the Seitz tool you must always assert pressure on the handle, but since the Horia type uses a screw it frees up one hand and makes the operation feel both more precise and safe. The only drawback, of course, is that the Horia jeweling tool can't be used for reaming, so for that reason I'll be keeping my Seitz.

Using my caliper I also measured the distance between the anvil and the pump pusher, then rotated the screw 360 degrees (1.00 mm) and measured again. The difference between the first and second measurement was just a few hundreds of a millimetre (minus the added millimetre of course) and my caliper is naturally not as exact as my Bergeon micrometre. So, it would seem the Chinese got the threading on the screw just right as well!

Conclusively I must say that my very first AliExpress buy of a watch tool was a (somewhat unexpected) success and I wouldn't hesitate one bit to recommend this tool. The finish is not up there with the Swiss (Seitz and I would expect Horia), but it does what it's supposed to and it does it well. And, considering the price difference between the original tool and this clone, I'd say this is a no brainer, especially if you're a hobbyist.

Edited December 10, 2021 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

Only thing I can reply to this and I'm in the minority, is the lever type is less sensitive  or precise etc. For me the lever type are more precise due to some trigonometric function. I find the lever type "handier" as you can (in real world) set a stop and have both hands steadying the piece while a palm hits the lever.

 

Probably just being old, but I'm a practical  person.

[VWatchie]

One advantage of the Seitz jeweling tool over the Horia jeweling tool (the version without a lever press) is actually the lever. Yesterday I was adjusting end-shake and the jewel was sitting pretty hard. When the friction finally gave I couldn't prevent myself from continuing rotating the screw and overshot. This, of course, could never happen with the lever type as no matter how hard the lever is pressed it will only go so far as the micrometer screw has been set. So, in this respect the Seitz jeweling tool, and I would guess the lever operated Horia version as well(?), is a bit safer.

It's not a big deal, but I thought I'd share it in case someone is in the process of getting that first jeweling tool.

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This, of course, could never happen with the lever type as no matter how hard the lever is pressed it will only go so far as the micrometer screw has been set.

Unfortunately a similar problem can happen with the lever type. Yes you can only go as far as you set it to but what if you have a perception that it's not moving or you somehow lost your mind? Then you adjust for little more depth and it doesn't seem to be going? Then a similar scenario to what you have adjusting for more depth. So both tools work fine if you don't get carried away with adjusting too far then undesirable things can happen. Which is why I like the micrometer tool I felt I had better control over the situation than the lever where I'm pretty sure on more than one occasion I went too far with the lever just because I couldn't keep my hands off the adjustment.

[VWatchie]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately a similar problem can happen with the lever type.

The advantage with the Horia non-lever type jeweling tool, and that you touch upon, is the enhanced feeling of control.

With the lever type, you set the depth level, press, and hope for the best. Being a hobbyist I have the luxury of "unlimited" time. So, after each lever press I check the end-shake to make sure the jewel really moved. If not, I add 1-2/100 mm to the depth I initially wanted and try again. And so I keep going until I'am satisfied. It can be pretty time consuming so it's indeed tempting to "get carried away".

Pressing the lever one might think that the desired change is guaranteed, but in practice that is not always the case. I guess when doing minor adjustments "something else", rather than the jewel, gives a bit and that's why you need a bit of extra.

Anyway, and as you point out, both tools work fine! And, it was definitely not my intention to bash on the Horia non-lever type. 

[clockboy]

There is always a difference between the Swiss tools and the China clones. It’s normally the build quality and materials used. The BHI magazine review horological tools some of the latest reviews, the Chinese watch mainspring winders that are a sort of copy of the Bergeron winder and in the January (2022) edition Jeweling tools were reviewed. Amongst the reviews was the Chinese clones. “As ever ,it is in the fit and finish where you get what you pay for” With regard to the jeweling tool the Chinese pump-centre is very poorly made as is the pusher faces. The end shakes were also measured, with the Swiss there has no perceptible end-shake but the Chinese had“discernible lash” 

However the conclusion with regard to the Asian jeweling tool was that despite their failings they are a good start on the ladder towards the ‘real’ thing. 

 

 

[VWatchie]

21 hours ago, clockboy said:

There is always a difference between the Swiss tools and the China clones. It’s normally the build quality and materials used.

Indeed and as I previously mentioned...

On 12/9/2021 at 9:33 PM, VWatchie said:

The finish is not up there with the Swiss (Seitz and I would expect Horia), but it does what it's supposed to and it does it well. And, considering the price difference between the original tool and this clone, I'd say this is a no brainer, especially if you're a hobbyist.

IMO, spending nearly £1,800 (including shipping, 25 % Swedish tax, and import fees) for the Horia non-lever press and the set with 24 pushers and 24 anvils instead of £142 (including shipping, 25 % Swedish tax, and import fees) for the Chinese clone is untenable for a hobbyist. However, for a professional shop where the tool is used by several repairers on a daily basis it is a different story. I have zero reservations recommending this particular Chinese clone.

About Chinese mainspring winders; The Chinese set sold by Cousins is decent and does its job well. It's not the same set reviewed by Mark on his YT-channel (there are many different Chinese sets).

Edited January 29, 2022 by VWatchie