Chinese clone horia tool

[AP1875]

I would like a jeweling tool to practice correcting end shakes and also to install jewels. The Horia tool with a set of pushers/anvils is out of my budget at the moment.

I noticed a Chinese version

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000261581571.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000013.1.5ee15a59YGNywJ&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.146401.0&scm_id=1007.13339.146401.0&scm-url=1007.13339.146401.0&pvid=c3dcc468-4930-4773-bc9c-319ccf7b9847

At first glance they look the same and being Chinese the price difference is huge, less than 10% of the Swiss version but too expensive to take a wild punt. Some Chinese tools and equipment i have purchased have been absolutely brilliant. Does anybody have any experience with this tool?

[jdm]

In this case the difference is not 1:10. A Seitz before stakes and punches is £290 + VAT https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/seitz-jewelling-tool-with-spindle

Maybe you can get the needed one as you go. Or bite the bullet for the complete set at £875 + VAT.
And I'm sure there are deals on Ebay if patient.

[AP1875]

Would the chinese one not be sufficient though? The tool and full set of 24 stakes and puches for less than £300

The Horia tool and 24 piece set is £1278 on Cousins

[AP1875]

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/horia-jewelling-tool

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/assortment-24-pump-pushers-24-anvils

[jdm]

Complete from the US, box, vintage look and all.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Seitz-Jeweling-tool-set-with-reamers-pushers-anvils/274079345666

about £300, maybe use a reshipper to lessen customs charges.

I have nothing against the Chinese, it's just that in this case their value proposition is not that compelling.

Edited December 8, 2019 by jdm

[JohnR725]

if you don't like the Chinese version can you return it?

Visually it looks really really close to the Horia. One of the problems I found from buying Chinese stuff that visually what you think you're purchasing isn't always entirely what you get.

Then for the Seitz versus Horia tool? if you're going to insert new jewels you're going to have to acquire the Seitz tool as it has the reamers that you're going to need. Then it will let you push the jewels in so one tool does it all. But the Horia tool is so much nicer for pushing the jewels and adjusting end shake. So the absolute best world would be to have both of them.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools.html

[AP1875]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

if you don't like the Chinese version can you return it?

Visually it looks really really close to the Horia. One of the problems I found from buying Chinese stuff that visually what you think you're purchasing isn't always entirely what you get.

Then for the Seitz versus Horia tool? if you're going to insert new jewels you're going to have to acquire the Seitz tool as it has the reamers that you're going to need. Then it will let you push the jewels in so one tool does it all. But the Horia tool is so much nicer for pushing the jewels and adjusting end shake. So the absolute best world would be to have both of them.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools.html

Thanks for the info John. This is the first jewel I need to remove. It's from a Rolex clone movement. I have another scrap movement I can source a jewel from. Will the Chinese horia tool not suffice to complete this task? 

[jdm]

The tools mentioned here so far all probably do the same job, but they are not exactly the same. Since I do not know why the differences myself I will make a summary

• Seitz shown above all have a (detachable) lever, and I suppose, 4mm pushers and anvils. Some use guidance is provided (attached)
• Chinese doesn't have a lever.
• Horia has various types:
  - No lever, 3mm or 4mm spindle (the latter is more "standard" I think), regular of fine thread, that I can probably understand.
  - With lever, come in two types: free or guided spindle, not sure why to chose one over the other.
  - With lever and bigger spindles.
  Their boxed sets include both first two types, as if the serious Watchmaker couldn't do without.

But for the amateur and/or budget minded professional the best deal is always a basic tool on Ebay, then add the bits as needed.

 

2001_J31073.pdf

Edited December 8, 2019 by jdm

[clockboy]

I must say these Chinese clones are getting very good indeed. The build quality may not reach the same standards but for hobbyist / amateur they seem remarkable value.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, AP1875 said:

Thanks for the info John. This is the first jewel I need to remove. It's from a Rolex clone movement. I have another scrap movement I can source a jewel from. Will the Chinese horia tool not suffice to complete this task?

both tools will work fine.

Normally when people are replacing broken jewels when fitting a new  jewel  it will more than likely be sized differently  which is why you would need to  ream out the hole for proper fit. As you already have a proper replacement jewel that will not need to be done.

lever versus micrometer head?  Conceivably with the lever you'll have much more pushing force.   The micrometer head in my opinion  gives you much more precise  adjustments..

then the 3 mm versus the 4 mm? The older horia tool tool that I have has a spindle of 3 mm with a base of 4 mm..  The Seitz set both the base and the spindle are 4 mm. So for compatibility reasons it's nice  to have everything at 4 mm for interchangeability..

 

 

[AP1875]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

both tools will work fine.

Normally when people are replacing broken jewels when fitting a new  jewel  it will more than likely be sized differently  which is why you would need to  ream out the hole for proper fit. As you already have a proper replacement jewel that will not need to be done.

lever versus micrometer head?  Conceivably with the lever you'll have much more pushing force.   The micrometer head in my opinion  gives you much more precise  adjustments..

then the 3 mm versus the 4 mm? The older horia tool tool that I have has a spindle of 3 mm with a base of 4 mm..  The Seitz set both the base and the spindle are 4 mm. So for compatibility reasons it's nice  to have everything at 4 mm for interchangeability..

 

 

That's great thanks. I think i'll give the chinese one a go.

A question regarding changing jewels. Are you saying if i didn't have a replacement i would not find the exact sized jewel to fit so i would have to ream out the hole and fit one with a larger diameter? The inside measurement would always have to be the same though, in this case for the centre wheel to pass through.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, AP1875 said:

A question regarding changing jewels. Are you saying if i didn't have a replacement i would not find the exact sized jewel to fit so i would have to ream out the hole and fit one with a larger diameter? The inside measurement would always have to be the same though, in this case for the centre wheel to pass through.

this is watch repair anything is possible? This means that if you look on the catalog  pages of the attached PDF you may find the exact size jewel you're looking for. But is also the possibility of the various watch companies using their own jewels and the outside diameters might not correspond to the jewel sizes found on the catalog page.

5006 A_a_F Seitz jewels.pdf

[AP1875]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this is watch repair anything is possible? This means that if you look on the catalog  pages of the attached PDF you may find the exact size jewel you're looking for. But is also the possibility of the various watch companies using their own jewels and the outside diameters might not correspond to the jewel sizes found on the catalog page.

5006 A_a_F Seitz jewels.pdf 2.03 MB · 0 downloads

i bet those sets aren't cheap. i'm sure i can order individual ones from Cousins though.

Next problem.... what is best best way to measure the inside diameter of a jewel, they're so small

[JohnR725]

If you go to the link below scroll down to the section titled Joseph School of Watch Making And realistically download the entire book because it has really useful information. But you looking at section titled Unit 9b - Friction Jeweling. That is going to answer a lot of questions maybe not all of them but that would get you started.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

[rodabod]

Personally, I'd avoid the Chinese copy. Go second-hand Swiss. In all likelihood the Swiss tool will have superior build quality, tolerances, and material.

[AP1875]

I thought i'd bump this instead of starting a new thread.

The Chinese tool arrived. I have adjusted end shakes on a few movements to get the feel of it. It works the same way as the Horia tool and has 0.01mm of slack so if you need 0.04mm correction you push 0.05 etc.

So i need to press in this jewel. I have pressed a few out of 2824 clone movements and it was super easy, i just took the measurements before and then placed them back on top.

Now i have to press this jewel into the Rolex clone movement i'm a little bit nervous, i can't get another one... So thought i'd ask a couple of questions here, if anyone would be kind enough to help me out?

1. As i can't take a measurement, is the only way to achieve the correct end shake placing the movement back together and keep taking it apart until the end shake feels right?

2. Does this jewel in the picture only go in one way (centre jewel)? I cant work out if one side is different to the other.

 

 

[dadistic]

Interesting that you mention the "slack". Just so that I understand, if you back off the micrometer, then bring it down and touch the jewel, you get .01 movement on the mic scale before the pusher starts moving the jewel? That would be a different situation than the normal backlash in a screw, where there is slack or slop when reversing the movement of the mic.

Have fun with your tool!

[AP1875]

If you want to push a jewel 0.02mm you actually need to push it 0.01 extra.

does anybody know if the centre jewel has to be pressed in a certain way up?

thanks

[nickelsilver]

The extra hundredth thing is a thing with pretty much every jeweling tool I've used, including Seitz, Favorite, Chatons SA, and Horia. I tend to use the lever types, but Horia screw types are similar. Think of the stack up of parts- the stump, the watch plate, the jewel, the pusher, the interface of pusher to spindle, then finally the micrometric screw. A micron or two of slop or mushiness here, another there, that it's typically only a hundredth is pretty fantastic.

 

As for orienting the jewel, if it's truly symmetric put it however you want. If there is an oil sink (however slight), that goes opposite the wheel.

 

 

[Jdg123]

hi, would you provide a link to the tool you got? How has it held up so far? 

 

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Jdg123 said:

hi, would you provide a link to the tool you got? 

Search 5372 on AliExpress.

[praezis]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

Search 5372 on AliExpress.

Did you ever do this yourself?

Frank

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, praezis said:

Did you ever do this yourself?

Searching and selecting itmes on AliX, yes. Purchasing this tool no. But the  other member above did. 

[praezis]

Your advice brings only integrated circuits as result.

Frank

Edited December 7, 2020 by praezis

[jdm]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Your advice brings only integrated circuits as result.

They have some algo's too :).
For me it's the 4th item, but no ICs.
With Bergeon 5372 should be the 1st. Or MSA 13.100.