Jump to content

Chinese clone horia tool


Recommended Posts

I would like a jeweling tool to practice correcting end shakes and also to install jewels. The Horia tool with a set of pushers/anvils is out of my budget at the moment.

I noticed a Chinese version

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000261581571.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000013.1.5ee15a59YGNywJ&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.146401.0&scm_id=1007.13339.146401.0&scm-url=1007.13339.146401.0&pvid=c3dcc468-4930-4773-bc9c-319ccf7b9847

At first glance they look the same and being Chinese the price difference is huge, less than 10% of the Swiss version but too expensive to take a wild punt. Some Chinese tools and equipment i have purchased have been absolutely brilliant. Does anybody have any experience with this tool?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Complete from the US, box, vintage look and all.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Seitz-Jeweling-tool-set-with-reamers-pushers-anvils/274079345666

about £300, maybe use a reshipper to lessen customs charges.

I have nothing against the Chinese, it's just that in this case their value proposition is not that compelling.

Edited by jdm
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if you don't like the Chinese version can you return it?

Visually it looks really really close to the Horia. One of the problems I found from buying Chinese stuff that visually what you think you're purchasing isn't always entirely what you get.

Then for the Seitz versus Horia tool? if you're going to insert new jewels you're going to have to acquire the Seitz tool as it has the reamers that you're going to need. Then it will let you push the jewels in so one tool does it all. But the Horia tool is so much nicer for pushing the jewels and adjusting end shake. So the absolute best world would be to have both of them.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools.html

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

if you don't like the Chinese version can you return it?

Visually it looks really really close to the Horia. One of the problems I found from buying Chinese stuff that visually what you think you're purchasing isn't always entirely what you get.

Then for the Seitz versus Horia tool? if you're going to insert new jewels you're going to have to acquire the Seitz tool as it has the reamers that you're going to need. Then it will let you push the jewels in so one tool does it all. But the Horia tool is so much nicer for pushing the jewels and adjusting end shake. So the absolute best world would be to have both of them.

 

https://www.horia.ch/en/Products/Jewellling-Setting-staking-tools.html

Thanks for the info John. This is the first jewel I need to remove. It's from a Rolex clone movement. I have another scrap movement I can source a jewel from. Will the Chinese horia tool not suffice to complete this task? 

20191208_040613.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The tools mentioned here so far all probably do the same job, but they are not exactly the same. Since I do not know why the differences myself I will make a summary

  • Seitz shown above all have a (detachable) lever, and I suppose, 4mm pushers and anvils. Some use guidance is provided (attached)
  • Chinese doesn't have a lever.
  • Horia has various types:
    - No lever, 3mm or 4mm spindle (the latter is more "standard" I think), regular of fine thread, that I can probably understand.
    - With lever, come in two types: free or guided spindle, not sure why to chose one over the other.
    - With lever and bigger spindles.
    Their boxed sets include both first two types, as if the serious Watchmaker couldn't do without.

But for the amateur and/or budget minded professional the best deal is always a basic tool on Ebay, then add the bits as needed.



 

2001_J31073.pdf

Edited by jdm
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, AP1875 said:

Thanks for the info John. This is the first jewel I need to remove. It's from a Rolex clone movement. I have another scrap movement I can source a jewel from. Will the Chinese horia tool not suffice to complete this task?

both tools will work fine.

Normally when people are replacing broken jewels when fitting a new  jewel  it will more than likely be sized differently  which is why you would need to  ream out the hole for proper fit. As you already have a proper replacement jewel that will not need to be done.

lever versus micrometer head?  Conceivably with the lever you'll have much more pushing force.   The micrometer head in my opinion  gives you much more precise  adjustments..

then the 3 mm versus the 4 mm? The older horia tool tool that I have has a spindle of 3 mm with a base of 4 mm..  The Seitz set both the base and the spindle are 4 mm. So for compatibility reasons it's nice  to have everything at 4 mm for interchangeability..

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

both tools will work fine.

Normally when people are replacing broken jewels when fitting a new  jewel  it will more than likely be sized differently  which is why you would need to  ream out the hole for proper fit. As you already have a proper replacement jewel that will not need to be done.

lever versus micrometer head?  Conceivably with the lever you'll have much more pushing force.   The micrometer head in my opinion  gives you much more precise  adjustments..

then the 3 mm versus the 4 mm? The older horia tool tool that I have has a spindle of 3 mm with a base of 4 mm..  The Seitz set both the base and the spindle are 4 mm. So for compatibility reasons it's nice  to have everything at 4 mm for interchangeability..

 

 

That's great thanks. I think i'll give the chinese one a go.

A question regarding changing jewels. Are you saying if i didn't have a replacement i would not find the exact sized jewel to fit so i would have to ream out the hole and fit one with a larger diameter? The inside measurement would always have to be the same though, in this case for the centre wheel to pass through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AP1875 said:

A question regarding changing jewels. Are you saying if i didn't have a replacement i would not find the exact sized jewel to fit so i would have to ream out the hole and fit one with a larger diameter? The inside measurement would always have to be the same though, in this case for the centre wheel to pass through.

this is watch repair anything is possible? This means that if you look on the catalog  pages of the attached PDF you may find the exact size jewel you're looking for. But is also the possibility of the various watch companies using their own jewels and the outside diameters might not correspond to the jewel sizes found on the catalog page.

5006 A_a_F Seitz jewels.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this is watch repair anything is possible? This means that if you look on the catalog  pages of the attached PDF you may find the exact size jewel you're looking for. But is also the possibility of the various watch companies using their own jewels and the outside diameters might not correspond to the jewel sizes found on the catalog page.

5006 A_a_F Seitz jewels.pdf 2.03 MB · 0 downloads

i bet those sets aren't cheap. i'm sure i can order individual ones from Cousins though.

Next problem.... what is best best way to measure the inside diameter of a jewel, they're so small

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go to the link below scroll down to the section titled Joseph School of Watch Making And realistically download the entire book because it has really useful information. But you looking at section titled Unit 9b - Friction Jeweling. That is going to answer a lot of questions maybe not all of them but that would get you started.

https://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I thought i'd bump this instead of starting a new thread.

The Chinese tool arrived. I have adjusted end shakes on a few movements to get the feel of it. It works the same way as the Horia tool and has 0.01mm of slack so if you need 0.04mm correction you push 0.05 etc.

So i need to press in this jewel. I have pressed a few out of 2824 clone movements and it was super easy, i just took the measurements before and then placed them back on top.

Now i have to press this jewel into the Rolex clone movement i'm a little bit nervous, i can't get another one... So thought i'd ask a couple of questions here, if anyone would be kind enough to help me out?

1. As i can't take a measurement, is the only way to achieve the correct end shake placing the movement back together and keep taking it apart until the end shake feels right?

2. Does this jewel in the picture only go in one way (centre jewel)? I cant work out if one side is different to the other.

1790873318_2blX7u4TBWEIBgzr79zQ.thumb.jpg.a843a020c5d3ce2d02eb6766662832f8.jpg

fullsizeoutput_71d.thumb.jpeg.54105a18f6fa40f61079575ab7d3ace0.jpeg

 

fullsizeoutput_71e.thumb.jpeg.c9597b18053e73bb5aca3458158ba2f6.jpeg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting that you mention the "slack". Just so that I understand, if you back off the micrometer, then bring it down and touch the jewel, you get .01 movement on the mic scale before the pusher starts moving the jewel? That would be a different situation than the normal backlash in a screw, where there is slack or slop when reversing the movement of the mic.

Have fun with your tool!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The extra hundredth thing is a thing with pretty much every jeweling tool I've used, including Seitz, Favorite, Chatons SA, and Horia. I tend to use the lever types, but Horia screw types are similar. Think of the stack up of parts- the stump, the watch plate, the jewel, the pusher, the interface of pusher to spindle, then finally the micrometric screw. A micron or two of slop or mushiness here, another there, that it's typically only a hundredth is pretty fantastic.

 

As for orienting the jewel, if it's truly symmetric put it however you want. If there is an oil sink (however slight), that goes opposite the wheel.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hi Fernando, read carefully what @eccentric59 wrote, it is the key to You problem. Lubricate the cannon pinion. Take care to understand what is it's function. When You set time, the train doesn't move, but only the cannon pinion moves. Put hte lever back in it's place, it has nothing to do with time setting
    • Hi fernando. Let us know how you get on.
    • OK, in You case You will assemble the movement with the line attached to the barrel and fusee and will  wind the line  entirely on the barrel after that. It is important when replacing the line to know the correct lenght of the line. The rule is that when line wound on the fudsee entirely, about 1/4 turn still to remain on the barrel. Yes, no tension. The ratchet is not placed yet, the spring in the barrel is complitelly unwound. At the end of the step the fusee is empty and the line is attached to it and strained perpendiculary to it, not on tangent. The escape wheel. Use whatever that will not damage anything. Yes, this is typing mistake, sorry. The word 'pendulum' here is not correct, You should use 'anchor' and yes, it is removed from the movement at this point, according my instruction 1 (Ihave used the word 'lever' there):   Ok, let sey the barrel arbour makes 6 full turns when winding the spring in the barrel from unwound to fully wound state of the spring. Let sey that the barrel makes 4.5 full turns when winding the clock from fully unwound (the line is on the barrel) to fully wound (the line is on the fusee) state. This means that You should not wind the spring in the barlel when adjusting the initial tension to more than 1.5 turns of the arbour of the barrel.  If You make 2 full turns, then when winding the clock, the barrel will be able to turn to only 4 turns, so the limiting device will not limit the rotation of the fusee arbour and You will be able to force the line much more than when the limiting device acts, also the power reserve will be less. Hope this is clear now... Yes, but again - not the pendulum, but the anchour.   About the loosing time... In this kind of escapement, the frequency pritty much depends on the torque. The higher torque - the highrer frequency. This is because this escapement forces the pendulum to oscillate significantly faster than it's own resonant fequency. The frequency depends on the 'depth' of the escapement too - the deeper escapement is, the lower the frequency, and the higher amplitude of pendulum oscillations. The heavier the pendulum is, the harder to the movement (the escapement torque) to force the pendulum to oscillate faster than it's own frequency. And in the end, the own pendulum frequency depends only on the pendulum lenght and a little on the suspension spring 'strenght' This are all the relations between all the factors. You can try to use the old spring (if it is not broken) and see if the clock will work faster with it. Yes, the old springs of fusee clocks sometimes give bigger torque than modern ones, no matter if they seem to be 'set' You can shorten the pendulum to achieve correct frequency. If the torque is reduced, but enough for the movement to work reliably,  then reduced torque will only lead to lessen the wear. The torque in fusee movements is more or less constant all the time, this is the function of the fusee. You can use the Clock Tuner  free app for android to adjust faster the clock rate. You will need to know the BPH of the movement, so count the teeth of the wheels and pinions and calculate the BPH
    • Hi! My bad. I meant to say that when the pallet fork is installed I cant move the wheels "using the crown in the setting position" Really in truly my number 3 was redundant and badly written (trying to explain myself went all wrong). I dismantling partially the watch (calendar, remontoir, Balance and Pallet fork). I think I would need to go that way...  Thanks for your comments...    
    • this is what happens if you don't fully do all of your research. I found the safe answer I found your exact caliber we got a mainspring number we got a price at a decent price for the original spring verified that the spring number at least on bestfit agrees with what we have so it was safe yes I did look in the GR catalog I had seen that 200 watch has a spring similar to what you perceive it should be. But to be honest I never looked at the 200 watch to see what its mainspring was. then the other amusement I went back to the bestfit online because if the 200 have the same spring I were to see that when I snipped out the image up above. Turns out they don't even show a 200 listing at all.  
×
×
  • Create New...