Help to identify ladies watch movement

[Ramone]

Hi guy's, I need help with identification of this movement, it has no markings anywhere of a movement maker or number,  the only marking is " Swiss made" and " 15 jewels "

The reason that I want the movement identified is because it needs a new hairspring, so knowing what it is would be a great help 

Thank you in advance 

[Tmuir]

How wide is it at its widest point on its narrow side?

[yankeedog]

I am thinking  fhf.

[watchweasol]

Hi   One way is by the flume (setting lever spring) there are books to reference it.  By the look of it its 30s 40s era.

[yankeedog]

Maybe not..try this.take measurements  in mm.Convert to ligne. ( for example  3.25 x 9.5) plug these values into Herr Ranfft's website and see what calibers pop up.

[watchweasol]

Hi just a thought  The bestfit books one and two are on this site posted by Old Hippy some time ago I think there was a flume indentification section on on of them. I have found the catalogues and attached them the password is tickandtock.  Theyare in PDF format so you gan page through them.

bestfit_part1_(1).pdf bestfit_part2_(1).pdf

[Ramone]

Thank you,  it's 21mm X 9 mm ( 8.7)

[Ramone]

34 minutes ago, yankeedog said:

I am thinking  fhf.

Thank you, I'm gonna have a look at the books (bestfit)  

[Ramone]

27 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   One way is by the flume (setting lever spring) there are books to reference it.  By the look of it its 30s 40s era.

Thank you kindly, I'll look up and pay particular attention to the setting lever spring shape 

[Ramone]

22 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi just a thought  The bestfit books one and two are on this site posted by Old Hippy some time ago I think there was a flume indentification section on on of them. I have found the catalogues and attached them the password is tickandtock.  Theyare in PDF format so you gan page through them.

bestfit_part1_(1).pdf 151.32 MB · 1 download bestfit_part2_(1).pdf 66.3 MB · 1 download

Thank you so much, the books would definitely help,  it's so hard to guess who made the movement, even the case which is sterling silver has no info, will try my best to find out and let yourl know the outcome

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Ramone said:

Thank you so much, the books would definitely help,  it's so hard to guess who made the movement, even the case which is sterling silver has no info, will try my best to find out and let yourl know the outcome

I need certain HS , 500 to 1000 pieces, know the caliber, not the CGS for its hairspring.  Question; How do you go about finding  compatible hairspring once you know the caliber?   TIA.     Best

[watchweasol]

Hi  to answer that one I would put it to nicklesilver he has the experience working in the industry and would know the proceedures.

[Tmuir]

19 hours ago, Ramone said:

Thank you,  it's 21mm X 9 mm ( 8.7)

I just checked through my 1949 Catalogue Officiel, but sorry its not in it.

[Ramone]

Guys I have looked through the best fit books, I ddnt find an exact match 

However, the Eta 651 is scary close, what are yourls opinions?  I see it has its own escape wheel bridge/cock unlike the unknown movement,  and the setting lever spring slightly differ, I'll attach pics of the ETA 651

[nickelsilver]

I need certain HS , 500 to 1000 pieces, know the caliber, not the CGS for its hairspring.  Question; How do you go about finding  compatible hairspring once you know the caliber?   TIA.     Best

Have you found the tech sheet for your caliber? They often actually list the cgs. Otherwise there are tables that correspond cgs to ligne size, which would be pretty close. If you need it spot on you'll need to have a selection of springs of known cgs, vibrate one that seems about right, check the diameter, then there's a simple formula to determine the correct cgs.

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

On 11/11/2019 at 6:00 PM, Nucejoe said:

I need certain HS , 500 to 1000 pieces, know the caliber, not the CGS for its hairspring.  Question; How do you go about finding  compatible hairspring once you know the caliber?   TIA.     Best

Have you found the tech sheet for your caliber? They often actually list the cgs. Otherwise there are tables that correspond cgs to ligne size, which would be pretty close. If you need it spot on you'll need to have a selection of springs of known cgs, vibrate one that seems about right, check the diameter, then there's a simple formula to determine the correct cgs.

Found one of the tables, it's in French but easy to figure out.

 

If doing the test spring process, the formula is K=K' (D/D') ²

K is the CGS number you're looking for

K' is the CGS of the spring you test

D is the diameter of spring you need, at the pinning point

D' is the diameter of the correctly vibrated test spring at the pinning point.

 

Sorry to the OP Joe and I are hijacking the thread a bit, maybe a mod could move it to a new thread?

 

 

[Nucejoe]

Hi Nickelsilver, Thank you for all the help.  Will search for the tech sheet.

I have many used genuine hairsprings and balances that I have been vibrating together. Need to place order for more hairsprings of compatible springness. 

Been trying to experimentally find a compatible HS of known CGS. 

 Strength is proportional to area of the coil outer circle.

I think I may find CGS direct out of this tables. 

Will keep you posted.  Thank you, great help.   Best

 

 

 

[WatchMaker]

Your measurements of 8.75 x 21mm put this at a ligne size of 3.75 x 9.25 (or perhaps 4 x 9.5). There aren't that many movements of this size and the most common is the FHF 59 (which other manufacturers used as well and gave their own movement ID to). Unfortunately it's not this as the keyless works and bridge layout are completely different to your movement.

Which brings me on to your probability of an ETA 651. That's a no ... at 10 x 22.7mm it's larger than yours and of course the keyless works (and bridge layout) are different. In my searching I had also come across the ETA 746 but it's the same story.

I have spent ages looking through stuff trying to find your movement but no luck.   I've found setting lever springs that look similar but then a no-go on the movement size; a (Van) Buren movement looked promising but didn't tie up etc. etc.

I hope someone strikes lucky!

[Nucejoe]

Yes I hijacked this thread, did not mean to , sorry sorry.

 

[Nucejoe]

Please move to, if you will, 

 Question, Hairspring in the family  

Best

[Ramone]

13 hours ago, WatchMaker said:

Your measurements of 8.75 x 21mm put this at a ligne size of 3.75 x 9.25 (or perhaps 4 x 9.5). There aren't that many movements of this size and the most common is the FHF 59 (which other manufacturers used as well and gave their own movement ID to). Unfortunately it's not this as the keyless works and bridge layout are completely different to your movement.

Which brings me on to your probability of an ETA 651. That's a no ... at 10 x 22.7mm it's larger than yours and of course the keyless works (and bridge layout) are different. In my searching I had also come across the ETA 746 but it's the same story.

I have spent ages looking through stuff trying to find your movement but no luck.   I've found setting lever springs that look similar but then a no-go on the movement size; a (Van) Buren movement looked promising but didn't tie up etc. etc.

I hope someone strikes lucky!

Thank you so much for the help and the time you spent searching 

 

Still no luck on my side, but will keep searching, hopefully I'll find out what it is 

Thanks again for the help 

Really appreciate it and appreciate this forum 

The information from the experienced are priceless

[Ramone]

13 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes I hijacked this thread, did not mean to , sorry sorry.

 

No need to apologise or to move,  

They are related 

After all I need to identify the movement because I need a hairspring 

I unfortunately never learn about CGS and hairspring formula yet but would love to in the future 

Thank you 

[WatchMaker]

Since an ID on this movement seems elusive one other suggestion is to dismantle and see if there are clues anywhere else. I have worked on a very old movement before where a makers mark was on the underside of a bridge. 

[Nucejoe]

53 minutes ago, Ramone said:

No need to apologise or to move,  

They are related 

After all I need to identify the movement because I need a hairspring 

I unfortunately never learn about CGS and hairspring formula yet but would love to in the future 

Thank you 

Just a quick intro,  CGS is( a system of units) used in analysis of  physical systems. C stands for centimeter, G for gram, S for seconds. . In this case, the relation between, torque( force applied at radius R) , springness and the amount of the resulting bend in a hairspring.  CGS is suitable for and adapted in horology.    Sounds difficult , it is easy.

Best 

[Ramone]

Hi guy's,  I miraculously found a watch on an online auction with the exact movement,  the setting lever spring shape is slightly different but the movement is identical to the unknown in question,  and this movement that I found has a stamp / makers logo on the main plate under the dial 

However I have never seen this logo,  can anyone tell me what it is?  

Also there's no movement number under the balance cock,  just the letter " N"

Thank you