Regulator not changing rate

[Lc130]

Hi All

Moving the regulator on this bifora 115/1 is not changing the rate.  It stays at +360 to 400.  The HS level and is going through the boot and pin.  I was able to adjust the beat error.  Amplitude is 270 dial down.  What should I be looking for?

Thank you

Charlie

[JohnR725]

It would be nice to have a picture of the watch specifically centered over the balance wheel. Then a picture of the timing machine results just so we might see something you don't see.

Then past history did you service this watch have you demagnetized It etc.

Also while timing dial-up and dial down and at least one crown position Like crown down all three would be nice as sometimes things are different in different positions.

Look very very carefully at the hairspring see if it's touching the balance arms for instance if it's touching something it's not supposed to it would run fast. Or if it's magnetized or if the coils are stuck together because they like to do that when they have sticky stuff on them like old lubrication for instance. Then yes sometimes it's really hard to see if they hairspring is touching the balance arms it can still look level.

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bifora_115_1DIG

[jdrichard]

I had two circles of HS trapped inside the regulator and not just one. It was very hard to see with the watch I was working on but really increased the frequency and lowered the amplitude.


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[Nucejoe]

It could also be wrong hairspring.

[yankeedog]

my money is on an oily hairspring.

[Lc130]

The balance assembly is a donor from another bifora 115/1.  I mangled the original

I soaked all parts in lighter fluid for 24 hours then ran through ultrasconic and rinse twice with alcohol.

Notice that the stud has to be down a bit for the HS to be level.

Level?

 

Dial up, pendant right, dial down...

End shake ..too much???

 

Thank you!

Charlie

Edited November 6, 2019 by Lc130

[Nucejoe]

Yes Excess end shake . Will cause positional variation if no other problem.

HS coils are not concentric, pushed to the side.

 

[Lc130]

38 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes Excess end shake . Will cause positional variation if no other problem.

HS coils are not concentric, pushed to the side.

 

The HS looked concentric when it was off the balance.  What's likely causing the distortion?  What causes the excess end shake and how do I correct it?  I do have another bifora balance wheel.

[Nucejoe]

If End curve is not properly shaped, adjust arm pins may push the coils to the side.

At the end of the end curve, passed the bend,  the HS should be manipulated which can bring the coils to center. Someone savy with Ipad can draw arrows showing where to streigten. 

Balance runs good in the vid. So at this point, priority is with the regulation.

End shake if due to pivot wear, standard repair is to replace the staff or complete balance. I flip the end stone over to face dome side with the pivot, on which some frown. If pivot length is good, some times moving the jewel- chaton housing would work. We got to find the cause for the proper fixing.

Is the other balnve just a wheel or has got HS on it?

[Lc130]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:26 PM, Nucejoe said:

If End curve is not properly shaped, adjust arm pins may push the coils to the side.

At the end of the end curve, passed the bend,  the HS should be manipulated which can bring the coils to center. Someone savy with Ipad can draw arrows showing where to streigten. 

Balance runs good in the vid. So at this point, priority is with the regulation.

End shake if due to pivot wear, standard repair is to replace the staff or complete balance. I flip the end stone over to face dome side with the pivot, on which some frown. If pivot length is good, some times moving the jewel- chaton housing would work. We got to find the cause for the proper fixing.

Is the other balnve just a wheel or has got HS on it?

The other balance is just the wheel.  I bent the HS and not skillful enough to fix it.  I did try the other balance wheel (without the HS) and end shake is less.  Two questions:

This is the balance with too much shake.  Should one of these bends not be there?  

To transfer the HS to the good balance wheel, do I make a mark on the good wheel where the stud is on the other wheel relative to the impulse jewel.  Then attempt to install it in the same spot?

Thank you

Charlie

[Jon]

If you want to transfer the HS, then that is exactly what you do, but the original reading was to high a beat error to have the stud in exactly the same position on the new balance, so you need to work out where to fit the HS in relation to reduce that beat error. When the balance and HS is fitted, the impulse jewel should be bang in the middle of the banking pins. If you look sideways to the movement and line up the banking pins you will see the impulse jewel off to one side, then you can work out which way to turn the hairspring on the new balance staff to get the impulse jewel in the correct position and reduce that beat error.

Also when the HS is fitted to the other balance with less end-shake, check that the HS bounces ever so slightly between the pin and the boot.

Have you demagnetised the whole movement, not just the HS?

[Lc130]

I've demagnetized it several times.  Is the end curve correct?

Thank you

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lc130

[Nucejoe]

There you are.

If the roller has remained undisturbed( in original position), the dot already on balance shows a valid position. Disturbed or not,  I, ll be with you for, In beat installation of HS. 

Unless exact same caliber and standardized,  transferring HS to another wheel may involve cutting, vibrating.

Shimming is less risky.

[Nucejoe]

Ya the end curve looks undisturbed, good, we,ll need to check how the balance sits on balance bridge with stud in stud hole, HS in reg slot, pivot in jewel hole.

[Jon]

The curves look in the correct place as Nucejoe has said, although as I've said you need to make sure when the stud is in place that the hairspring isn't bouncing too much between the curb pin and the boot otherwise this may lose a lot of time.

 

[Jon]

This might help to remove the hairspring...

[Lc130]

I've swapped the HS on to the less worn balance.  I've not done this before.  The fork is still out and I've not tested anything yet.  This watch has no banking pins.  Ranfft describes it as "lever banking by cock instead pins."  Anyone know what that means?  Here's the plate

  

I would think that I'd want to jewel to line up with the fork hole??  You can barely make that out...

Is any adjustment needed?

Thank you

Charlie

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lc130

[JohnR725]

If you put the pallet fork back in and set the bridge on top you'll find that the banking pins are milled into the pallet fork bridge usually. So there's nothing to do here there.individual pens it basically just forms a milled slot. Which will see when we get the pallet fork bridge.

[Lc130]

Well this doesn't look as I had hoped.  This is the original movement, original balance wheel, complete donor balance cock and jewels and donor HS from another movement stamped 115/1.  Is there any hope for a beginner?

 

[Nucejoe]

Impulse is excessively strong, usually due to strong mainspring. 

What kind of amplitude do you see, at low wind, say 5 or 10%. ?

[Lc130]

With 4 winds the amplitude is 250 and rate is still 999.  The regulator is set as far to slow (near end curve) as possible. 

This mainspring is from the donor. It looked cleaner than the original. I don't have rewinding tools so don't clean the mainspring. 

 I'll transfer the original mainspring back this week.  However, the donor watch looked ok on the timegrapher. Is it possible that the donor hairspring will only work in the donor watch?  At the moment the watch has a donor balance cock and jewels, donor hairspring and mainspring.

Thank you

[Nucejoe]

21 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

With 4 winds the amplitude is 250 and rate is still 999.  The regulator is set as far to slow (near end curve) as possible. 

This mainspring is from the donor. It looked cleaner than the original. I don't have rewinding tools so don't clean the mainspring. 

 I'll transfer the original mainspring back this week.  However, the donor watch looked ok on the timegrapher. Is it possible that the donor hairspring will only work in the donor watch?  At the moment the watch has a donor balance cock and jewels, donor hairspring and mainspring.

Thank yo

If one hairspring is to beat like 18800 and the other like 28000 bph, yes hairspring transfer causes such drastic change in rate.

[Nucejoe]

Are you sure of your TG readings?   I try a good running watch on,  just to test it.

[Lc130]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:37 AM, Nucejoe said:

Are you sure of your TG readings?   I try a good running watch on,  just to test it.

The TG is good.  I've tried several professionally serviced watches on it. 

I put the original mainspring back but still have the same "++++" rate and 290 amplitude. 

When I first got the donor I put it on the TG and it looked ok.  I wasn't getting "++++" for rate.

Is there something else I should look at??

Thank you

Charlie

[Nucejoe]

46 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

The TG is good.  I've tried several professionally serviced watches on it. 

I put the original mainspring back but still have the same "++++" rate and 290 amplitude. 

When I first got the donor I put it on the TG and it looked ok.  I wasn't getting "++++" for rate.

Is there something else I should look at??

Thank you

Charlie

Let me read through the thread, I have forgotten what all you done so far.   Best.