Weird Heartbeat (noise from the balance?)...

[PaulnKC]

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Keep an eye on escape wheel as you turn the balance, the instance entery pallet is about to drop, impulse pin is to be at the right position to receive energy from the fork horn. 

If impulse jewel has passed the said position, the horn hits on impulse jewel from behind, that is an impact not an impulse. Such impact imparted to the impulse jewel will be scattered through out the body of balance complete, causing the HS to vibrate as strings do in musical instruments, you hear it as the twang twang that Nicklesilver mentioned. Hairspring is crying,, get rid of the impact please,,.

Impulse is not a hit rather a push on the impulse jewel.

 

 

Thank you Nucejoe!

Not sure how easy it will be for me to observe that, but I will try to have a look.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, PaulnKC said:

Thank you Nucejoe!

Not sure how easy it will be for me to observe that, but I will try to have a look.

Easier said than done, which is why I do the saying lol. Lots of watches run most of working life twanging or similar noise. I got six NOS movements, each makes a noise of its own. If handy letting us hear the noise may help.   Best Regards

[PaulnKC]

35 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Easier said than done, which is why I do the saying lol. Lots of watches run most of working life twanging or similar noise. I got six NOS movements, each makes a noise of its own. If handy letting us hear the noise may help.   Best Regards

That's a good idea - to try to record the noise. I suspect that will also be very challenging - as it's not something you can hear without holding the watch to your ear (in contact).

I'll see what I can do.

[rodabod]

It’s an option on the better Elma/Witschi timegraphera to play the mic audio through a speaker. I always wanted to modify my cheap Chinese timegrapher to do this as I don’t always have access to the Swiss ones. 

[PaulnKC]

56 minutes ago, rodabod said:

It’s an option on the better Elma/Witschi timegraphera to play the mic audio through a speaker. I always wanted to modify my cheap Chinese timegrapher to do this as I don’t always have access to the Swiss ones. 

Yeah, my inexpensive timegrapher seems to hear everything it needs to suit my purposes - but it doesn't "play" what it "hears". 

It does make a nice fake/generic tic based on the beat rate. 

[PaulnKC]

On 11/5/2019 at 8:25 PM, PaulnKC said:

So - a little more info. 

I didn't do any disassembly tonight, but I did have a little time to pop the back off and see what I could see.

First, I did indeed find a small (VERY small) dot on the rim of the balance wheel where the hairspring stud points. And it looks to be pointing at that dot - but the distance between them makes it somewhat hard to tell with any degree of accuracy.

With no power in the mainspring, the palette folk comes to rest very near the center of the banking pins. Perhaps this is to be expected when the beat error is less than 2 ms?

2 ms sounds like an enormous beat error to me - but it may not be many degrees off center.

I think it would be best to eyeball it with the pallet folk out - so that I can get a clear view of the impulse jewel - and the pallet fork won't influence where the jewel / spring come to rest.

Lastly - no excessive play in the balance staff.

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and ideas.

-Paul

So, now with the pallet fork out - I can see that it rests a bit more off center.

It's still not a bunch. But instead of being slightly off-center - I can see the impulse jewel resting at the left banking pin (left as look through the banking pins toward the balance staff).

And of course, I see a more significant misalignment with the mark on the balance wheel.

I tried to photograph the impulse jewel looking through the banking pins, but couldn't get a usable shot. Sorry.

So, I will work to get that centered up and then reassemble enough to recheck the beat error. I expect that I should be able to get it close enough just by centering between the banking pins.

Will update with results.

Again - thanks to all that take the time to post and share their knowledge.

-Paul

[PaulnKC]

6 hours ago, PaulnKC said:

So, now with the pallet fork out - I can see that it rests a bit more off center.

It's still not a bunch. But instead of being slightly off-center - I can see the impulse jewel resting at the left banking pin (left as look through the banking pins toward the balance staff).

And of course, I see a more significant misalignment with the mark on the balance wheel.

I tried to photograph the impulse jewel looking through the banking pins, but couldn't get a usable shot. Sorry.

So, I will work to get that centered up and then reassemble enough to recheck the beat error. I expect that I should be able to get it close enough just by centering between the banking pins.

Will update with results.

Again - thanks to all that take the time to post and share their knowledge.

-Paul

I didn't anticipate this.

After centering the impulse pin (visually) - I don't see a material improvement in beat error.

BUT - the weird noise is gone!

In as much as I can't center the impulse jewel any better, I guess I'll have to live with the beat error. But I do feel better that the strange (to me) noise is gone. It sounds perfectly healthy. Amplitude is only around 250. Not great, but I think for a vintage watch, 250 is in the acceptable range.

[m1ks]

How strange!

I'm thinking it's highly unlikely that it was related to the out of beat problem but that something has shifted / settled on removing and rebuilding the parts, what I don't know and it's pure speculation.

Perhaps something rubbing or catching, a screw head very slightly proud etc?

It's great that it's sounding and looking better, well done on that. Re the beat error, on these with a fixed stud if I get it within 0.5 I typically call it good enough though I'll try for 0.3 or lower but around there you only need the tiniest movement to get it off the other way.

[Nucejoe]

Your decision not to touch those  pallets is wise. You obviously  know the following, just a review ,however;

Impulse jewel to come to rest  inside fork horn as the fork is in mid-point between banking pins, is the ideal position (both in beat) ) to recieve impulse, delivery of the impulse at this instance ,however, depends on pallets position whose workings "" pallets and escape teeth "" is to dish out an healthy  impulse.  Only then we have an in beat escape mech and can expect to see "happy" running. 

Am I right?   

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, m1ks said:

How strange!

I'm thinking it's highly unlikely that it was related to the out of beat problem but that something has shifted / settled on removing and rebuilding the parts, what I don't know and it's pure speculation.

Perhaps something rubbing or catching, a screw head very slightly proud etc?

It's great that it's sounding and looking better, well done on that. Re the beat error, on these with a fixed stud if I get it within 0.5 I typically call it good enough though I'll try for 0.3 or lower but around there you only need the tiniest movement to get it off the other way.

The noise is highly likely to have been the fork  hitting  on bankings, rather hard,  A noise is still there,  though weaker. 

[PaulnKC]

1 hour ago, m1ks said:

How strange!

I'm thinking it's highly unlikely that it was related to the out of beat problem but that something has shifted / settled on removing and rebuilding the parts, what I don't know and it's pure speculation.

Perhaps something rubbing or catching, a screw head very slightly proud etc?

It's great that it's sounding and looking better, well done on that. Re the beat error, on these with a fixed stud if I get it within 0.5 I typically call it good enough though I'll try for 0.3 or lower but around there you only need the tiniest movement to get it off the other way.

Hey m1ks,

I don't know if highly unlikely - but I was thinking along similar lines.

-Paul