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Weird Heartbeat (noise from the balance?)...


PaulnKC

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All,

 

Some of you will know that I have been working recently on a vintage movement. It's an Omega Ca. 266. from 1954 according to the seller - presumably based on the serial # from the movement.

 

I decided to give the movement a full service - as I didn't know the service history. Which after stripping down the watch, it was apparent that it had been serviced in recent history. As everything was incredibly clean and all lubricants still clean and fluid. Of course, I wouldn't have know that without  stripping it down.

 

After reassembly (following cleaning and fresh lube) - most everything seems to be in good order. But I can hear a funny (odd) "ting" noise in the heartbeat when the movement is positioned such that the balance staff isn't vertical (isn't dial up or dial down).

 

I assume that the noise is coming from something in the balance. But I don't see anything too weird on the timegrapher. Other than too much beat error (1.2 - 1.8 ms depending on position).

 

So, two questions (I am assuming this isn't normal or healthy)

 

1) What would you check for?

 

2) How does one correct (or improve) the beat error on a balance without a beat correction? I am guessing that the hair-spring would need to be loosened at the stud. Then position the balance to the center position and tighten the hair-spring stud? Or something like that.

 

I am seeing about 250 degrees amplitude dial up or down. -4 sec/day. Down to about 210 degrees with the balance staff horizontal. Not much variation in the timing. Worst position was -9 secs. Most about -4. Best +1.

 

If I hadn't put the movement up to my ear, I wouldn't have any idea that something was "off".

 

-Paul

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The beat error is regulated at the collet on the balance staff, I find that a medium to large oiler is ideal depending on the balance, (wristwatch / pocket watch), while the cock is suspended from a balance tack.

You need to ascertain the direction of adjustment before removing the balance cock then it's trial and error.

For future reference it's handy to eyeball and adjust as near as possible while the movement is stripped as you can physically see the impulse jewel and align it, adjustment must still be made with the cock removed.

Addressing the other issue, if you're hearing the noise then chances are something is rubbing or catching when it's side on, have you inspected the jewel holes and pivots for wear and tested for side shake?

Overbanking is a possibility also, do you know the amplitude?

Also is the variance in beat error between positions or regardless of position?

 

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Some unconventional advice. Lubricant distribution on escape teeth has not yet fully taken place, this may take several days of running. If you now see appropriate to add oil, apply directly on escape teeth, allow time for distribution.

Previous balance complete build could be inaccurate.  

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, m1ks said:

The beat error is regulated at the collet on the balance staff, I find that a medium to large oiler is ideal depending on the balance, (wristwatch / pocket watch), while the cock is suspended from a balance tack.

You need to ascertain the direction of adjustment before removing the balance cock then it's trial and error.

For future reference it's handy to eyeball and adjust as near as possible while the movement is stripped as you can physically see the impulse jewel and align it, adjustment must still be made with the cock removed.

Addressing the other issue, if you're hearing the noise then chances are something is rubbing or catching when it's side on, have you inspected the jewel holes and pivots for wear and tested for side shake?

Overbanking is a possibility also, do you know the amplitude?

Also is the variance in beat error between positions or regardless of position?

 

m1ks,

 

Thanks so much for your response.

No problem stripping things back down to wherever necessary to regulate the beat error. But not sure the equipment required. I'll have to investigate that some more.

The variance in beat error was by position. Not regardless.

Max amplitude is about 240 degrees - so, I don't think that would make over banking a probability. Plus it's only noticed when the balance staff is not vertical (not dial up or dial down).

Will have to do some disassembly to investigate.

Thank you!

-Paul

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Check out Marks YouTube videos, he has an excellent one showing how to adjust the collet on a fixed stud post.

How big a variance in beat error are you seeing from DD / DU to the other positions, a little variation is normal but if you're seeing huge variations you could have variational error due to the balance needing poising.

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9 minutes ago, m1ks said:

Check out Marks YouTube videos, he has an excellent one showing how to adjust the collet on a fixed stud post.

How big a variance in beat error are you seeing from DD / DU to the other positions, a little variation is normal but if you're seeing huge variations you could have variational error due to the balance needing poising.

Dial up/down 1.2 ms crown up/down 1.8 ms. 

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It's a sign that your beat error is amplitude dependent. Is the hairspring concentric? Centered in the Regulator pins? How wide is the pin gap? What's the beat error with the movement in a position that has the pallet fork pointing straight down compared with horizontal?

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A video by Mark, shows to set impulse jewel in beat, is at the stage that he is building the balance complete. 

At this stage you have reassembled. why not re-set the roller in beat?    No need to disassemble again.

 

 

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Guys,

Thank you all for your input.

Given my schedule - it may be this coming weekend before I can spend any time with it to answer some of the questions you have posted. I have ordered a balance tack though. So will have available in a few days.

Planing to correct the beat error first - since the cause/correction is pretty definite. Then see if the noise persists with that correction made.

As always - many thanks to all that share their knowledge and take time to post!

-Paul

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I'm not sure if there's a problem here. Some watches can really belt out a "twang twang" , like a tiny banjo getting tuned. Maybe in the vertical positions the change in effect of gravity is enough to permit that. That's a pretty good size movement, wouldn't surprise me.

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1 minute ago, nickelsilver said:

I'm not sure if there's a problem here. Some watches can really belt out a "twang twang" , like a tiny banjo getting tuned. Maybe in the vertical positions the change in effect of gravity is enough to permit that. That's a pretty good size movement, wouldn't surprise me.

Hum... Thanks nickelsilver. I will keep that in mind.

I haven't heard anything like this before, but The overwhelming majority of my watches are ETA 2824's (or similar). So, not a very diverse sample.

I'll go after the beat error and get that corrected - and reassess from there.

-Paul

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12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

A video by Mark, shows to set impulse jewel in beat, is at the stage that he is building the balance complete. 

At this stage you have reassembled. why not re-set the roller in beat?    No need to disassemble again.

Can you give us a link to the specific video as Mark has a lot of videos.

Then the preferred method is rotating the hairspring collet. The problem with moving the roller is you have to disassemble the balance to do so and you screw up the poise. Then you still have to put their hairspring back on and get it in the right position so it's much easier just to rotate the collet if the balance is already assembled.

You should look carefully at your balance wheel on the top and see if there is a mark? A lot of times on older wristwatches the watch company will put a mark where the stud is supposed to be in alignment with. It usually really tiny and it's not always there but if it is it's very helpful for putting the watch back in beat.

Then it would be really nice if you would take a picture of the timing machine when the Watch is in the position when it's making noise just so we can see what it looks like.

Omega's specification for your movement and beat error is 0.8 ms with the measurement being taken anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes after the watch is fully wound up. Then so you get your amplitude right the lift angles 49°.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_266

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7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Can you give us a link to the specific video as Mark has a lot of videos.

Then the preferred method is rotating the hairspring collet. The problem with moving the roller is you have to disassemble the balance to do so and you screw up the poise. Then you still have to put their hairspring back on and get it in the right position so it's much easier just to rotate the collet if the balance is already assembled.

You should look carefully at your balance wheel on the top and see if there is a mark? A lot of times on older wristwatches the watch company will put a mark where the stud is supposed to be in alignment with. It usually really tiny and it's not always there but if it is it's very helpful for putting the watch back in beat.

Then it would be really nice if you would take a picture of the timing machine when the Watch is in the position when it's making noise just so we can see what it looks like.

Omega's specification for your movement and beat error is 0.8 ms with the measurement being taken anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes after the watch is fully wound up. Then so you get your amplitude right the lift angles 49°.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_266

John,

Thanks so much for all of the additional info!

I believe the video being referenced is "How to align the hairspring to set the watch in beat"

If the link doesn't work, you should be able to find it by title.

-Paul

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4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Can you give us a link to the specific video as Mark has a lot of videos.

Then the preferred method is rotating the hairspring collet. The problem with moving the roller is you have to disassemble the balance to do so and you screw up the poise. Then you still have to put their hairspring back on and get it in the right position so it's much easier just to rotate the collet if the balance is already assembled.

You should look carefully at your balance wheel on the top and see if there is a mark? A lot of times on older wristwatches the watch company will put a mark where the stud is supposed to be in alignment with. It usually really tiny and it's not always there but if it is it's very helpful for putting the watch back in beat.

Then it would be really nice if you would take a picture of the timing machine when the Watch is in the position when it's making noise just so we can see what it looks like.

Omega's specification for your movement and beat error is 0.8 ms with the measurement being taken anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes after the watch is fully wound up. Then so you get your amplitude right the lift angles 49°.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_266

Sorry don,t have a link. Not good with cranking out links as easy as you do.  I don,t see how paul and m1ks concluded a need to correct for beat.

Anyway, I do not remove the HS , roller will be move instead, with HS undisturbed. The result isn,t stud right on the dot on balance wheel, but nicely in beat, Very true, poising is involved, isn,t it with repositioning the HS ? 

 

 

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As a reminder marks and videos are educational there to teach things but they're not necessarily the only way of doing something.

So another way to do this that I find this simpler is the following. Rotate balance wheel like Mark shows until watch is in beat. You can do this with the pallet fork in place. If you're using the pallet fork as a reference placing it between the banking pins will be really close not necessarily perfect. There is a little bit of play between the roller jewel and the fork slot so even with the pallet fork perfectly centered that additional play of the roller jewel may leave you a little out of beat but you'll be very very close. Now place a felt pen mark on the rim of the balance wheel corresponding to where they hairspring stud is supposed to go. Felt pen is used because it's easy to clean up it's not permanent. Remove the balance wheel like Mark shows leave the hairspring on the balance wheel rotate collet until stud is in alignment with the mark. Then reassemble and verify that things look correct. Then if you have a problem just note which direction you have to go in relationship to the mark you made remove and do this again avoid the balance tack method as I will explain below.

You will note I have an aversion to the balance tack. The problem is in the video he shows pulling and stretching the hairspring on a very large balance wheel and it's a very stiff hairspring. When hanging watches with softer hairsprings they don't like that sort of hanging and if you not super careful it's really easy to distort them.

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8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Anyway, I do not remove the HS , roller will be move instead, with HS undisturbed. The result isn,t stud right on the dot on balance wheel, but nicely in beat, Very true, poising is involved, isn,t it with repositioning the HS ? 

Okay theoretically with the hairspring in place if you could rotate the roller you could put the watch in beat. The problem is the roller table is friction on the staff and rotating it would be very likely impossible. It's so much easier to rotate the hairspring collet it's meant to be rotated as long as you're careful .

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Regarding putting the watch in beat, the normal thing to do is move the hs collet. But you can move the roller table too, there are tweezers to do it and even more sophisticated tools as well. When you're within 1.5-2 ms beat error the movements are really small.

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Sorry don,t have a link. Not good with cranking out links as easy as you do.  I don,t see how paul and m1ks concluded a need to correct for beat.

Anyway, I do not remove the HS , roller will be move instead, with HS undisturbed. The result isn,t stud right on the dot on balance wheel, but nicely in beat, Very true, poising is involved, isn,t it with repositioning the HS ? 

 

 

I didn't conclude a need to correct the beat, it was asked how one corrects the beat on a balance cock with no movable stud lever which I advised on using the method I tend to use.

(However with a BE above 1.0 I would), personally if it's above 0.5 I like to get it as close as possible.

I haven't tried adjusting the roller table but it would still require removal of the cock to do so and they tend to be quite a tight interference fit whereas the the hairspring collet (most often but not always) is slotted to facilitate adjustment.

I imagine moving the roller table would necessitate poising the balance again also?

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44 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Okay theoretically with the hairspring in place if you could rotate the roller you could put the watch in beat. The problem is the roller table is friction on the staff and rotating it would be very likely impossible. It's so much easier to rotate the hairspring collet it's meant to be rotated as long as you're careful .

True.  Repositioning the HS is the standard approch and for good reasons. Having special tools be nice. According to Nicklesilver small beat error there.          Best 

Oh I learned, thanks.

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24 minutes ago, m1ks said:

I didn't conclude a need to correct the beat, it was asked how one corrects the beat on a balance cock with no movable stud lever which I advised on using the method I tend to use.

(However with a BE above 1.0 I would), personally if it's above 0.5 I like to get it as close as possible.

I haven't tried adjusting the roller table but it would still require removal of the cock to do so and they tend to be quite a tight interference fit whereas the the hairspring collet (most often but not always) is slotted to facilitate adjustment.

I imagine moving the roller table would necessitate poising the balance again also?

I see, thought hairspring reposition was sure to be on agenda.Nice piece that omega. 

Cheers.

 

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So - a little more info. 

I didn't do any disassembly tonight, but I did have a little time to pop the back off and see what I could see.

First, I did indeed find a small (VERY small) dot on the rim of the balance wheel where the hairspring stud points. And it looks to be pointing at that dot - but the distance between them makes it somewhat hard to tell with any degree of accuracy.

With no power in the mainspring, the palette folk comes to rest very near the center of the banking pins. Perhaps this is to be expected when the beat error is less than 2 ms?

2 ms sounds like an enormous beat error to me - but it may not be many degrees off center.

I think it would be best to eyeball it with the pallet folk out - so that I can get a clear view of the impulse jewel - and the pallet fork won't influence where the jewel / spring come to rest.

Lastly - no excessive play in the balance staff.

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and ideas.

-Paul

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Keep an eye on escape wheel as you turn the balance, the instance entery pallet is about to drop, impulse pin is to be at the right position to receive energy from the fork horn. 

If impulse jewel has passed the said position, the horn hits on impulse jewel from behind, that is an impact not an impulse. Such impact imparted to the impulse jewel will be scattered through out the body of balance complete, causing the HS to vibrate as strings do in musical instruments, you hear it as the twang twang that Nicklesilver mentioned. Hairspring is crying,, get rid of the impact please,,:lol:.

Impulse is not a hit rather a push on the impulse jewel.

 

 

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The beat error suggested sounds reasonable to me.

Hairsprings often make odd noises.... Sometime a repeating "boing" sound. This can in some cases change across positions when the indexing pins are spaced too widely apart, or if the hairspring tends to sit against one pin rather than centrally..... But there may not be an actual issue here if the timing remains consistent.

I would suggest it's probably fine if the timekeeping is good (which is sounds like it is).

English-made Smiths from the 50's and 60's have an interesting sound. Lots of pinging from the escapement.

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2 hours ago, rodabod said:

The beat error suggested sounds reasonable to me.

Hairsprings often make odd noises.... Sometime a repeating "boing" sound. This can in some cases change across positions when the indexing pins are spaced too widely apart, or if the hairspring tends to sit against one pin rather than centrally..... But there may not be an actual issue here if the timing remains consistent.

I would suggest it's probably fine if the timekeeping is good (which is sounds like it is).

English-made Smiths from the 50's and 60's have an interesting sound. Lots of pinging from the escapement.

rodabod,

Thank you for those comments.

Anyone hear similar from the Omega 266 family? (is it common for them to make similar noises?)

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