New Movements For Practicing On, Very Cheap.

[BlakeL]

I'll see what others say and maybe I'll justoffer $75. I do enjoy these kinds of projects and it doesn't look like it would take too much besides stripping, cleaning and new paint since it's already working.

Edited January 4, 2015 by BlakeL

[steve855]

Just so you guys know, these movements are FE or Cupillard caliber 233-60 with LeJour branding. I looked them up and individually even for parts they are selling for around $25 so I might relist a few at some point. Seems like only one movement has sold in the past though. I tried winding the first one out of the case and it doesn't seem to be running. Will be a cool project getting at least one working. Defiantly smaller than the Chinese movement too.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Cupillard_233_60

Thanks for sorting this out! ! I spent quite some time on Dr Ranfft's site yesterday trying to figure out what these movements are. I bought a pack a few days ago and they arrived quickly since I'm only about 30 minutes away from the ebay seller. They are described as Renfer- Lengnau in the listing but I believe this is the company which makes the plastic movement trays that they come in.

The closest i found to the movement architecture was a Unitas 6565 but those are larger size.

The five which I bought are all missing the hour wheels (I think that's what's missing, anyway. ) I just got them to practice on so it's not a big problem.

I wound two of them and they seem gummed up to me. On of the balances seems like it wants to go but I don't think the pallet lever or escape wheel turns. Hopefully I can get some of them running though.

Thanks again and good job on clearing up that mystery for me.

Steve

[DrRock]

I'm still waiting for mine, but in the meantime I just checked back on the eBay seller's Web site, and found this sentence in the description:

 

"They do require oiling to get started"

 

That may well explain the fact that they are somewhat reluctant to start..... ;)

 

--
Pete, Brisbane
============
 

[steve855]

Yes, I do recall reading that in the description, I was just confirming it for those here who are still waiting for their shipment to arrive. I haven't had time to take one apart yet though. They appear to be in good condition, anyway.

Steve

[BlakeL]

I cleaned all the parts with some Naphtha and then reassembled the watch. It seemed to be doing the same exact thing as before.  I don't have oil to use yet so i'm not sure if it just needs that to get running.  I would think even without oil it would run somewhat.  What I noticed is that when you have the three wheels and escape wheel in with the bridge screwed down that it would not spin unless considerable force was put on the center wheel. Backing off the screws a bit to release pressure still did not help.  Does it just need oil or is there another issue? Are there basic oils to start out with? I know they are pretty expensive.

[Geo]

If everything is perfectly clean the wheels should spin very freely if you have everything properly engaged and aligned. It does sound as if a piviot is not engaged properly. Take it apart again and try locating only one wheel at a time and fit the bridge. That way you will be able to find out if there is a wheel with a problem. Once you do that assemble the complete train very carefully and gently press down the bridge to make sure everything is located and still free. Now fit the screws in place and ever so gently tighten them checking as you go that things are still turning OK. Finally fully tighten the screws.

[bobm12]

Completely agree with Geo. Also you may want to peg the jewels (you can use a wooden toothpick). In my mind, those old movement may have still some of the lubricant in the jewel holes. There is a thread on this forum (talking about lubrication and oils) where I believe I list some inexpensive oil for non professional use that could be used in these movements....not the best but at least can give you a measure of what you got before cleaning them again and re oiling with the proper oil when it becomes available.

[BlakeL]

I'll try again tonight and see how it goes. I removed the bridge twice and it happened both times so maybe I'm just not getting the pivots seated correctly.  I did look at all the jewel holes under my 10x loupe and they all seemed to be quite clean but i'll try pegging them just to be sure.  

[BlakeL]

You guys were right, I don't think I had all the pivots seated in the jewels correctly.  I pegged out the jewels then spent a good amount of time making sure I had every wheel seated correctly.  After that the wheels all turned freely. My next issue was the balance, once installed it never seemed to turn freely which seems to be the case on all the movements.  I'm going to have to figure this out next.  

[bobm12]

Hi Blake, the balance may need a little oil on the jewels (top and bottom jewels).

Edited January 8, 2015 by bobm12

[Geo]

Here's a copy of an earlier post I made to help someone fit a balance wheel, it may help you.

"Remove the balance wheel and escapement lever, these should be fitted last. This will now allow you to fit the main bridge more easily, and also allow you to see if everything is running freely. Once you have achieved that, fit the escapement lever and do not oil the jewels that it oscillates in. Now wind the watch 1-2 turns and check that the escapement levers flicks sharply from side to side by gently pushing it with a dry oiler or tooth pick.

If all is well, fit the balance wheel. Make sure that you position the balance jewel correctly in regard to where the the end of the lever. Looking down on the lever, if it lying to the right, ensure that the balance jewel is even further to the right when you drop the balance into position. Vice versa if the lever is lying to the left. As you turn the balance cock into the correct position the watch should start running."

[BlakeL]

I got a cheap Ikea desk lamp setup on my work area over the weekend and started working on what Geo recommended.  I was able to get everything lined up so that if I moved the balance manually I could see the escape work properly so I knew the jewel was aligned properly.  Even after doing this, it never seemed to GO! After tinkering for about 30 minutes I tried just putting a little forward pressure on the center wheel and it started to work fine.  I'm thinking that it probably just needs a proper ultrasonic cleaning and oil and it would work just fine.  My cleaning only consisted of pegging out the jewel holes and soakings/swirling the parts around in Naphtha.  I should be getting the 6498 that I bought off eBay this week so this project will probably go on hold while I work on the TimeZone level 1 course.     

[Geo]

Remove the main spring from the barrel, give it a good clean and lube.

[steve855]

Here's an update- I can't seem to get anywhere worth these movements. I pulled one apart today, did my best to clean everything. I put all but the balance assembly in small glass vials with naphtha, and ran a couple of cycles on my little ultrasonic, did my best to peg the jewels. I spent about an hour trying to put one of the shock springs back in. I finally got it but that's a story for another time.

I put all the train wheels and pallet lever back in and it all seems to move freely. If I give a slight half turn wind to the barrel everything spins.

My greatest problem is that I can't seem to install the balance correctly. I'm pretty sure I've ruined two balance springs already! I try to hold the balance cock and let the balance hang from it, then carefully angle it into place, with the roller jewel rotated beyond the pallet, then carefully turn the movement and set the balance cock into place. I can get the balance pivots seated in their jewels correctly and the balance cock seated on the main plate, but it seems the spring always gets fouled on something along the way. I once got the movement to actually run, sort of. It had an amplitude of about 80 degrees though! Is it supposed to be this difficult? I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm sure a pro could watch me and know right away but i don't have that option. It's all so small and hard to see, as I'm sure you people know. I'm about ready to bag it and throw all 5 of these in the trash- maybe after adjusting them to 5 positions with a ball peen hammer!

Rant over, thanks for listening.

Steve

Edited February 1, 2015 by steve855

[anilv]

If you need to pull the escape wheel out and its reluctant to come out.. make sure you pull it up square otherwise you'll break the pivot. Same for the pallet fork.

 

A pre-soak in Napthpa for an hour will ease the disassembly.

 

Anil

[steve855]

Thanks Anil. I didn't really have any trouble taking it apart and the escape pivots are ok. If i put a slight wind on the mainspring and gently nudge the pallet lever it will flick to the other side. It's the installation of the balance which is puzzling me today.

I decided to step away from the bench and go for a long walk with my dog and kids, which helped to clear my head. Sometimes just getting outdoors can work wonders.

Edited February 2, 2015 by steve855

[anilv]

Stepping away from the work is the hardest lesson to learn.

 

I usually try to step away from something if I make a  mistake 3 times on the same watch..usually dropping stuff or having stuff fly off my tweezer.

 

I take it as the stars are not in the correct alignment but its more likely fatigue!

 

Anil

[steve855]

That sounds like a wise policy. In that respect I'm fortunate to be a hobbyist, a pro does not always have the luxury to lay down the tools and walk away.

[steve855]

Well, I installed balance assembly #3 in movement #1, and it runs, but once again very low amplitude. I'm beginning to think there are other problems beyong just my poor technique of balance installation. I need to strip the movement and clean again, I think. When I first disassembled it and looked at the jewels with my highest magnification, I could actually see the dried up old oil. I was a bit surprised by this, I didn't think it would be so obvious. I'm guessing that my cleaning was insufficient and something in the train is still not moving freely enough. I'll give it another try and see what happens. I dread removing any of the anti-shock springs again, but I might have to. I haven't disassembled any of the balance cock jewels for cleaning due to the battle I had with the one in the main plate, but it looks like I'll have to face my fears and push ahead with it or this thing will never run properly.

[Geo]

Hi Steve it certainly sounds like the old oil is the problem. The jewels must spotlessly clean, if there is any hard old oil left it will swell wheel new oil is applied and grip the pinions. This is why you should not just oil an old movement without stripping and cleaning it first.

[steve855]

Thanks Geo, Im going to give it another try. I've set myself the task of getting at least one of these operational before I move on to some other projects which are more enticing. There's no point in getting too carried away with these movements since I have no hour wheels, dials, cases or hands- just a learning exercise so I suppose it's been somewhat successful in that way.

Steve

[Geo]

It's also letting you get used to the delicate touch that is required before working on something more valuable.

[rogart63]

Ever tried to Rolex service a movement ? 

[steve855]

Ever tried to Rolex service a movement ?

I'm not sure what this means so I think my answer is "no."

[Geo]

Ever tried to Rolex service a movement ?

I don't either, but the answer is "yes".