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Too much lock? Causing low amplitude?


VWatchie

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21 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Hi, Generously apply kerosene or diesel fuel to escape teeth like you do lubricants. This will dilute the oil, reducing drag, you are very likely to see much enhanced amplitude.

If you see 280 degree amplitude you can conclude the deep lock was,nt much of impedenace. 

That the easy part. The tough part starts if you accept to grind the pallet to shorten the length using my approach. :chainsaw:

Best

Well joe, you do have an interesting way to explain things! ;) "dilute the oil", meaning the pallet stone oil? "grind the pallet", grind exactly what? "my approach", where do you show your approach, or do you mean the "approach" of applying kerosene/diesel fuel to the escape wheel teeth?

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3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Well joe, you do have an interesting way to explain things! ;) "dilute the oil", meaning the pallet stone oil? "grind the pallet", grind exactly what? "my approach", where do you show your approach, or do you mean the "approach" of applying kerosene/diesel fuel to the escape wheel teeth

 

Approach.   . ,,,to grind down the length of the long pallet stone,,,      shorten it,s length, which then  makes possible,  relocating said pallet further inside the fork slot. thence reduce the depth of the lock. You will be grinding    ,,,the end ,,,    of the stone,   Call the end that engages with escape.  ,,, the tip,,, 

Reducing the said depth is reducing the length that pallet & escape teeth drag on each other. So we get stronger impulse, thence enhance the amplitude. 

Diesel fuel stays on escape teeth for few hours, considerably reduces friction. Helps Show us the effect of the deep lock on amplitude, in this case .

Pallet-fork replacement, though may enhance the amplitude,  wont provide much of chance to conclusively learn from it. Chance to learn especially that Nickelsilver  has joined in, your treat.:stuff:

 

 

 

Edited by Nucejoe
Approach details will come, once you decide to give it a go
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Any particular reason to why you use slo mo instead of a timing machine? I've recorded a few slow mo videos of the balance previously just for the fun of it, but I find it near impossible to determine the amplitude. Its so fast even in slo mo, and I guess the pallets must be included to determine the exact point the impulse pin is hit by the fork.

I also have th 600 buck escapement analyser software that I run to see specific problems. I just find that taking a quick video let's me know right away if there is an amplitude problem

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

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I do grind down the back side of pallet stones sometimes, when they are bottomed out in the fork and still need to go in more. You see this on really old stuff, high end, where there was a matter of pride in not having a gap between the bottom of the slot and jewel; also when replacing a jewel sometimes. On rare occasions it's necessary to regrind the impulse face to change the angle, again often when changing a jewel. The Levin book Practical Benchwork for Horologists has some good information on how and when to reshape an impulse face.

 

I adjust the escapement, either moving the pallet stones, the bankings, or both, on I think probably 1/3 of the watches I do- some weeks it seems like I do pretty much every watch. I understand it seems daunting to the uninitiated, but it really is a necessary task on many watches. I will dig through my books and see if I can find a concise explanation of the steps for checking. Actually moving the stones is another issue, and here having certain tools available makes it much easier, but way back in school we just had simple pallet warmers and an alcohol lamp and a strong loupe.

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Hi, I am talking grinding pallet bottom only and not the face.. So we can reduce the depth of the lock.

I am not sure if in this case lock depth is ,, the ,, issue, so I suggested reducing oil viscosity to reduce drag throughout the said depth as well. 

If as usual considerable gain in amplitude is observed,  the lock was having little adverse effect on developement of the impulse. 

Should OP put some diesel fuel on escape teeth and report the result, we have more data to decide on. Once the decision is to grind, I tell about my trick to grind pallet bottom with no dedicated tool at hand.

Best 

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1 hour ago, jdrichard said:


I also have th 600 buck escapement analyser software that I run to see specific problems. I just find that taking a quick video let's me know right away if there is an amplitude problem

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
 

Wow,  escape analyser.  Never heard of it. Back to googling here.:judge:

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5 hours ago, jdrichard said:

I also have th 600 buck escapement analyser software that I run to see specific problems. I just find that taking a quick video let's me know right away if there is an amplitude problem

Here's the link to the mention software. Then the same software is also available on eBay.

 

http://www.delphelectronics.co.uk/products.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watch-Clock-Timing-Machine-S-W-Witschi-Greiner-Vibrograf-Timegrapher/112473962615

 

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Depth of lock is something that you get a feel for when inspecting escapements. It needs to be deep enough to ensure that it is safely locked, and you can move the pallet fork across very slightly, release, and observe the “draw” to see what the action is like. 

On modern watches like these, I very rarely adjust thw locking. On adjustable banking pins (or at least bend-able), you always have to check it and will often find that they have been mis-adjusted. It seemed to be a common misconception that opening the banking pins was a quick fix for mis-locking. 

Bear in mind that if the pallet stones were moved to change the depth of lock then this also adjusts the drop. The angle of drop is wasted energy from the escapement as potential impulse is not translated into the balance while the escape wheel is disengaged from the pallets. 

 

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1 hour ago, rodabod said:

Depth of lock is something that you get a feel for when inspecting escapements. It needs to be deep enough to ensure that it is safely locked, and you can move the pallet fork across very slightly, release, and observe the “draw” to see what the action is like. 

On modern watches like these, I very rarely adjust thw locking. On adjustable banking pins (or at least bend-able), you always have to check it and will often find that they have been mis-adjusted. It seemed to be a common misconception that opening the banking pins was a quick fix for mis-locking. 

Bear in mind that if the pallet stones were moved to change the depth of lock then this also adjusts the drop. The angle of drop is wasted energy from the escapement as potential impulse is not translated into the balance while the escape wheel is disengaged from the pallets. 

 

Thank you rodabod,  I have been adjusting pallets by feel and intuition, so the fork wouldn,t hit the banks, would flutter, wouldn,t lock and regard a good amplitude as the approval. . Yet I know, I don,t know the scholastic teachings and analysis of the subject. Link to some source and your further advice is much appreciated.     Regards 

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26 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Thank you rodabod,  I have been adjusting pallets by feel and intuition, so the fork wouldn,t hit the banks, would flutter, wouldn,t lock and regard a good amplitude as the approval. . Yet I know, I don,t know the scholastic teachings and analysis of the subject. Link to some source and your further advice is much appreciated.     Regards 

This guy always gives good explanations:

 

My own documentation is BHI material and is copyrighted, so I will not share it, but that video gives a good description. It's important to realise what happens at the different phases of the escapement motion. If it's too much to take in at once, then start with the anchor escapement and advance from there. That is how escapements are traditionally taught, starting with the simplest.

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, rodabod said:

This guy always gives good explanations:

 

My own documentation is BHI material and is copyrighted, so I will not share it, but that video gives a good description. It's important to realise what happens at the different phases of the escapement motion. If it's too much to take in at once, then start with the anchor escapement and advance from there. That is how escapements are traditionally taught, starting with the simplest.

 

 

 

Thank you rodabod.  True,.   copyrights, also discontinued online hosting or pdf's with some sort of problem, non re-sellable books. 

I,ll carefully  review details in this.        Best joe

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8 hours ago, rodabod said:

On modern watches like these, I very rarely adjust thw locking. On adjustable banking pins (or at least bend-able), you always have to check it and will often find that they have been mis-adjusted. It seemed to be a common misconception that opening the banking pins was a quick fix for mis-locking

If you like pictures and like to hold something in your hand I found you a PDF.

Normally on modern watches the escapement should be fine unless you start changing components. Unfortunately as quoted above others seeking a quick solutions to unknown problems feel obligated to play with things especially banking pins. Banking pins are a common target because they're bendable or in the case of American pocket watches they can be rotated. So this means on watches like that you always have to check that there where there supposed to be. In the PDF below page 9 Section 5 shows the purpose the banking pins for horn clearance only.

http://facweb.northseattle.edu/dmcconnon/Escapement/Escapement handout.pdf

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  • 3 weeks later...

As I'm really not ready for the more advanced techniques, I was thinking to replace the escape wheel and the pallet fork, so I ordered these parts from www.oldswisswatches.com and took a nosedive.

Anyway, I just had the idea to lubricate (MOEBIUS 9415) the locking faces of the pallet stones... Never heard of it, so I guess it really shouldn't be done for this or that reason, and I'm not even sure it would help. Perhaps it would just make matters worse. So, what do you think of this little idea of mine?

Edited by VWatchie
typo
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If you like pictures and like to hold something in your hand I found you a PDF.
Normally on modern watches the escapement should be fine unless you start changing components. Unfortunately as quoted above others seeking a quick solutions to unknown problems feel obligated to play with things especially banking pins. Banking pins are a common target because they're bendable or in the case of American pocket watches they can be rotated. So this means on watches like that you always have to check that there where there supposed to be. In the PDF below page 9 Section 5 shows the purpose the banking pins for horn clearance only.
http://facweb.northseattle.edu/dmcconnon/Escapement/Escapement handout.pdf

Thanks for the doc, will study

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

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3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

As I'm really not ready for the more advanced techniques, I was thinking to replace the escape wheel and the pallet fork, so I ordered these parts from www.oldswisswatches.com and took a nosedive.

Anyway, I just had the idea to lubricate (MOEBIUS 9415) the locking faces of the pallet stones... Never heard of it, so I guess it really shouldn't be done for this or that reason, and I'm not even sure it would help. Perhaps it would just make matters worse. So, what do you think of this little idea of mine?

Had you not lubricated the escapement at all? You should lubricate the impulse faces of the pallet stones, this will go on the teeth of the escape wheel and get spread to the locking faces and across all teeth evenly after running for a while. You can use 9010, or 941 (advised by Moebius for slower beat watches i.e. 18,000bph), or 9415, which is suggested for faster beat watches but works great for slow beat as well. But you need lubrication there for sure. Don't oil the pallet fork pivots.

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Yes, I do lubricate the escapement and follow the practice as taught at watchrepairlessons.com (to get just the right amount). I just didn't realize the oil would spread to the locking faces, thinking that the locking faces aren't oiled to avoid defeating the locking mechanism. I feel slightly stupid to confess this but hey, I'm still learning! ;)

I think I've noticed on several occasions that the amplitude improves once the movement has been cased. I know it doesn't sound very rational and that it doesn't make any sense. Still, I can't stop the feeling that I might be onto something. Your thoughts about the amplitude increasing after the movement has been cased? I know I should let it run for a day or two before putting it on the timing machine but I seldom see much of a difference. Could it be that it needs to run for a week or two rather than a day or two?

Never heard about 9010 for slow beaters. Good to know! Thanks!

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11 hours ago, rodabod said:

Before these specific pallet greases were available, 9010 was typically used. It’s important because there is a scraping effect during impulse when the escape wheel tooth forces the pallet away. 

So, for slow beaters, 18,000 bph or less, what is the better option (if any), 9010, 941, or 9415? And do I get it right to assume that 9415 would perform better and is always recommended for anything above 18,000 bph?

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56 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

So, for slow beaters, 18,000 bph or less, what is the better option (if any), 9010, 941, or 9415? And do I get it right to assume that 9415 would perform better and is always recommended for anything above 18,000 bph?

Any oil is better than no oil. When the 9415 came into existence it was specifically recommended for higher frequency watches.

The problem with horological lubrication and the tech sheets are they could be almost 100 years old. More than likely anything in the last 50 years is going to seem like a relatively modern tech sheet. But the consequence of this is lubrication requirements specifications etc. have changed over the last hundred years which leads to lots of confusion as the tech sheets are all going to point to different lubricants. It also doesn't help that the various manufacturers have their own recommendations.

So currently 9415 seems to be the universal recommendation for everything.

 

 

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8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

So, for slow beaters, 18,000 bph or less, what is the better option (if any), 9010, 941, or 9415? And do I get it right to assume that 9415 would perform better and is always recommended for anything above 18,000 bph?

I’m inclined to agree with what JohnR says. But I’d also like to add some of my own cynicism which is that I think that the snake oil manufacturers will sell you anything if they can see a gap in the market. 

But, I can see why it makes sense to have something very slippery and less likely to be pushed away than a light synthetic oil. That possibly is more important for high beat movement where there is a greater velocity. 

With regards to “which is best”, I don’t think anyone should offer any opinions unless they have revisited work they have completed over a span of several years. I’ve been using 9415 for several years, but I’m yet to investigate its effectiveness long term. 

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