EB 8800 movement

[WildBill]

Hello, i have just serviced a eb 8800 movement but it doesn't seem to have a shock system

the bottom shock absorber you can remove clean and oil but the top shock is not assessable.

Your advice would be appreciated.... 

 

[Nucejoe]

That is right,   No shock protection, just end stones.  

[WildBill]

I managed to clean and oil the bottom end stone, is there a way to do the top...?

 

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, WildBill said:

I managed to clean and oil the bottom end stone, is there a way to do the top...?

 

Do you mean stones on the cock side? Or on the mainplate, dial side?  Both have same design, do you mean cleaning without removing the balance from the cock?

[WildBill]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Do you mean stones on the cock side? Or on the mainplate, dial side?  Both have same design, do you mean cleaning without removing the balance from the cock?

Yes, the stone on the cock the "top" stone,  the hairspring gets in the way, don't want to take off the balance if i can help it.

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Do you mean stones on the cock side? Or on the mainplate, dial side?  Both have same design, do you mean cleaning without removing the balance from the cock?

 

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Do you mean stones on the cock side? Or on the mainplate, dial side?  Both have same design, do you mean cleaning without removing the balance from the cock?

 

[Nucejoe]

Ronson lighter fluid is shellac friendly, in which you can submerge the balance assembly with the cock attached for couple of hours. 

Good luck.

[WildBill]

Yeah good advice, cant do any harm, will let you know how it go's...Bill

[vinn3]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Ronson lighter fluid is shellac friendly, in which you can submerge the balance assembly with the cock attached for couple of hours. 

Good luck.

      good luck

[m1ks]

You can access, remove, (by means of 2 small screws underneath, (where you see what appear to be pins beside the cap jewel), clean and lubricate as you normally would by removing the balance complete.

Care must be taken as the  stud appears to be pinned rather than held by a screw as you typically see and likewise care in refitting and repinning as this task is fiddly.

[WildBill]

Yeah thats makes sense, why make it hard, they could have put the 2 small screws on the top of the balance cock where they look like 2 studs.

I would have to take the Balance off from the stud, don't think i want to go down that road.

I have put the balance in lighter fuel for an hour the then put it in ultrasonic cleaner for 10 mins, "still in the fuel"..

Put the watch on the time grapher Rate -2 spd Amplitude 255 Beat error 0.01 Turn  the watch upside down and it looks like a snow storm

It is a 60 year old watch....Thanks for all of your comments

 

[m1ks]

It is an annoyance and some old pocket watches do have the screws on the top, I guess for wristwatch calibres it's a clearance thing?
The important thing is that you try to oil the jewel as best you can, hold the cock upside down on rodico or similar and while carefully holding the balance to the side and using the thinnest oiler apply a drop to the jewel hole and then poke through with a thin piece of wire, not ideal but better than running it dry.

 

[Nucejoe]

One may get by without much skill for some tasks, skill for balance complete R&R is a must however. If you don,t feel confident with this task now, I recommend practicing on a piece that you wouldn,t mind ruining. Do the same over and over, you will improve even develope some techniques and making use of other's experience is always useful . We all have destroyed our share of hairsprings. 

When you say you don,t want to go down that road, I think you mean not at this point in time, you just don,t feel like going down that road now. As for real small screws just soak real good. You will cut through it like butter.

Best wishes.

 

[AndyHull]

 For what little its worth, there are different versions of that EB8800 balance, some like the one you have and some with a more conventional spring.

It might also be worth checking that the fork pins are not bent, (see below) although this tends to cause the thing to explosively unwind.

So far as I can tell, and from a couple of experiments in this regard the different balances for the EB88XX series are all interchangeable (except possibly the 8815, although I haven't encountered one of those).

Note the second and third pic balances actually have a jewel, it just happens to be almost transparent.

So if you have a problem you may be able to swap the balance from another movement to prove or disprove the issue is with the balance.

From your description I suspect that one of the pivots may be worn or missing. If you are feeling particularly brave, or foolish, the balance staff is available as a spare, as is the balance complete. It is obviously significantly easier to replace the balance complete, or even easier, replace the whole balance from a donor including the balance cock/shock protection/jewel (delete whichever doesn't apply).

Edited October 26, 2019 by AndyHull

[stevew]

Would like to add be careful with using lighter fluid in an Ultrasonic Machine as its volatile.

[WildBill]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

One may get by without much skill for some tasks, skill for balance complete R&R is a must however. If you don,t feel confident with this task now, I recommend practicing on a piece that you wouldn,t mind ruining. Do the same over and over, you will improve even develope some techniques and making use of other's experience is always useful . We all have destroyed our share of hairsprings. 

When you say you don,t want to go down that road, I think you mean not at this point in time, you just don,t feel like going down that road now. As for real small screws just soak real good. You will cut through it like butter.

Best wishes.

 

 

10 minutes ago, stevew said:

Would like to add be careful with using lighter fluid in an Ultrasonic Machine as its volatile.

The lighter fuel was in a small jar with screw lid, I put water in the Ultrasonic Machine then put the jar in the water.

10 minutes ago, stevew said:

Would like to add be careful with using lighter fluid in an Ultrasonic Machine as its volatile.

 

[WildBill]

27 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

 For what little its worth, there are different versions of that EB8800 balance, some like the one you have and some with a more conventional spring.

It might also be worth checking that the fork pins are not bent, (see below) although this tends to cause the thing to explosively unwind.

So far as I can tell, and from a couple of experiments in this regard the different balances for the EB88XX series are all interchangeable (except possibly the 8815, although I haven't encountered one of those).

Note the second and third pic balances actually have a jewel, it just happens to be almost transparent.

So if you have a problem you may be able to swap the balance from another movement to prove or disprove the issue is with the balance.

From your description I suspect that one of the pivots may be worn or missing. If you are feeling particularly brave, or foolish, the balance staff is available as a spare, as is the balance complete. It is obviously significantly easier to replace the balance complete.

Only worked 8800 am i right those in the pic's are dia-shock,? would have been a lot easier with Dia-shock.

I love this hobby but had lots of failures with Balances and Hairsprings, I've just been reading its an on going problem

which makes me feel not so bad. The balance wheel looks wobbly which could mean a bent pivot, I don't think i have the skill

to put in a new balance staff..  

[AndyHull]

43 minutes ago, WildBill said:

The balance wheel looks wobbly which could mean a bent pivot, I don't think i have the skill

Sounds more like a broken pivot. If the balance appears to wobble while running, works in one position (say dial up), but not in another (say dial down) then there is a pretty high probability that one of the pivots is missing. 

Perhaps you could grab another couple of cheapest of the cheap EB 88XX watches off ebay and see if you can get a good balance in one of them. Ladies fob/chain/pendant type watches, and things with trashy dials often go for a couple of quid, if you can spot one with an EB88XX movement,  this works out way cheaper than purchasing a new balance.

Fortunately this was a very high production volume movement, so there are loads of them out there. Unfortunately, the balance is a common failure mode, as is wear on that strange arrangement of spring steel that holds the mainspring barrel. 

[WildBill]

Yes i have another 8800 the balance has a broken bottom pivot it wont run at all, I checked the pivots on this one and they are OK but i feel the bottom pivot could be bent, I will check out ebay for another old movement with a decent balance in it.... don't know why i am bothering with this old watch but i don't like to give up on it, Its a challenge,, Thanks for help  Cheers. 

[AndyHull]

Did you inspect the jewels? Is it possible to swap the two balances from one balance cock to the other, or are the hairspring studs glued rather than screwed in place?

[jdm]

46 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Is it possible to swap the two balances from one balance cock to the other, or are the hairspring studs glued rather than screwed in place?

I don't know about this one but I think no mov't has the end stud glued to the to balance arm. Even the ultra cheap C&C used a microscopic pin for the purpose.

[AndyHull]

40 minutes ago, jdm said:

I don't know about this one but I think no mov't has the end stud glued to the to balance arm. Even the ultra cheap C&C used a microscopic pin for the purpose.

In the constant battle for cheap, glue is not unheard of. Ronda for example were not above such practices.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Ronda_1233_21

From memory I think some of the Q&Q stuff is also glued. I don't think Timex ever went down that route, they tend to use pins, but given the low cost nature of the EB 88XX series, and the number of different balance variants I've seen, it would not surprise me to find an example with a glued hairspring end.

I guess the idea was that since the thing was so cheap, you were unlikely to bother stripping down the balance, and would simply replace the whole thing, or more likely, scrap the movement, or indeed the whole watch.

Edited October 27, 2019 by AndyHull

[AndyHull]

3 hours ago, WildBill said:

don't know why i am bothering with this old watch but i don't like to give up on it, Its a challenge

Half the fun of this game is fixing the things. The monetary value of the watch, in my opinion is not really that important.

Different if you are doing this for a living of course. Nobody is going to spend $100 servicing a $2 watch, unless it is of great sentimental value.

Here's one I fixed earlier. I know it isn't a fancy $$$$ Rolex, but ain't  bad looking for what it is, and it was very rewarding to get it going.

 

[WildBill]

7 minutes ago, jdm said:

I don't know about this one but I think no mov't has the end stud glued to the to balance arm. Even the ultra cheap C&C used a microscopic pin for the purpose.

I'm led to believe Glue is a No No in watches, but i did find the plastic domed crystal was glued in place with super glue i managed to get it out before i knew about the glue "a right mess".

The hairspring stud is not held by a screw but looks like its pressed in "friction fit" wouldn't attempt  to  do any more hairspring work without a Microscope

 

7 minutes ago, jdm said:

I don't know about this one but I think no mov't has the end stud glued to the to balance arm. Even the ultra cheap C&C used a microscopic pin for the purpose.

 

8 minutes ago, jdm said:

I don't know about this one but I think no mov't has the end stud glued to the to balance arm. Even the ultra cheap C&C used a microscopic pin for the purpose.

 

[WildBill]

41 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Half the fun of this game is fixing the things. The monetary value of the watch, in my opinion is not really that important.

Different if you are doing this for a living of course. Nobody is going to spend $100 servicing a $2 watch, unless it is of great sentimental value.

Here's one I fixed earlier. I know it isn't a fancy $$$$ Rolex, but ain't  bad looking for what it is, and it was very rewarding to get it going.

 

Thanks for the link, I think i may have passed on the Voyageur looked a bit of a wreck, did you ever get it finished.?

[AndyHull]

1 hour ago, WildBill said:

Thanks for the link, I think i may have passed on the Voyageur looked a bit of a wreck, did you ever get it finished.?

Well, the  Voageur was cleaned,  serviced and runs, and has hands and a crystal, but I'm still on the lookout for more correct hands, and a bezel of some sort. I suspect it had a timezone style bezel rather than a dive bezel, but since the watch seems to be pretty unique, I have yet to see another example to compare with.

What remained of the original set of hands looked like those on the Sicura "Marine Star", but the ones I have on it currently are just some vanilla hands I had in stock.

Edited October 27, 2019 by AndyHull