pallet fork isn't engaging with the escape wheel

[Ammar]

Hello,

I have an old Orient that I mentioned in a previous post, I managed to get my hands on Orient parts lot so I decided to work on the work again I cleaned the movement oiled it  and the train wheel worked both ways I was so happy.

then I put the pallet fork in and what do you know the stupid thing isn't stopping  the escape wheel from spinning I tried a couple of pallet forks but that made no difference I checked the escape wheel but it looks good, I have been trying all sort of stuff for the past 4 hours but nothing worked I am fuming I don't care about the watch performance any more I don't an't to use it the amplitude and other stuff dont matter to me I just want to see the damn thing work for one minute sixty seconds that's all I am so frustrated.

BTW this problem was there even before i dissembled it  I thought it would be solved after some cleaning and new parts.

sorry I cant add] any  pictures because my phone  camera isn't any good

Edited October 12, 2019 by Ammar

[jdrichard]

There is an impulse jewel, correct? Sorry for the stupid question but not sure what the symptoms are.


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[Ammar]

all the jewels are in a good shape as far as I can tell, the problem is after I install the pallet fork and the pallet fork bridge and give the mainspring a wind the train wheel just flies freely because the pallet fork isnt engaging with the escape wheel

4 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

There is an impulse jewel, correct? Sorry for the stupid question but not sure what the symptoms are.


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[jdrichard]

Again, this means that the impulse jewel that is on the roller table of the balance staff is not there or the pallet fork is too short for the impulse jewel to reach the mouth of the pallet fork opening.


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[Ammar]

1 minute ago, jdrichard said:

Again, this means that the impulse jewel that is on the roller table of the balance staff is not there or the pallet fork is too short for the impulse jewel to reach the mouth of the pallet fork opening.


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the impulse jewel is there (I am having hard time lining it up with the pallet fork tail or what ever it's called) and the problem is happening even before I install the balance wheel.

 

[jdrichard]

You are going to need to show us a picture. There should be no “lining up” unless you have the wrong pallet fork for the movement.


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[Ammar]

ok I will try to get some pictures tomorrow, I dont thing I have the wrong pallet fork though because I tried the original one that was in the movement and the other two that I have are exactly the same

[Nucejoe]

Have you checked the fork arbor jewels? 

Are pallets and escape wheel in same level?   

 

 

[Cmmb8519]

Have you checked the fork arbor jewels? 
Are pallets and escape wheel in same level?   
 
 

Are you putting the pallet fork upside down?

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[jdm]

8 hours ago, jdrichard said:

You are going to need to show us a picture. There should be no “lining up” unless you have the wrong pallet fork for the movement.

Just like the topic title says, the OP has trouble fitting the pallet fork. Nothing to do with the balance etc. 

That can be because one or both pivots are broken. Inspect them with a loupe. One can also remove main bridge and train, and install the pallet fork and its bridge alone just for verification and learning its proper positioning. 

As often mentioned is better that a beginner do practice with a working mov't, otherwise he may have trouble telling it the problem was there before, or he created it. 

[Ammar]

I have inspected the pivots and the jewels abd nothing seems broken or bent, this problem was there even before I took the watch apart.

I have been practicing for a while on Seikos and this watch isn't very different to them it's basically the same.

I noticed that the pallet fork is stopping the escape wheel from moving in one position but lets it spin freely in the other position.

Also when I fit the balance wheel it only turns one way but seems to be hitting on something the other way IDK what that is all about.

Yes I am trying to fix this watch but it's also practice it is my fathers watch but it's not worth much so it's ok if it doesn't work the experience I get from it is totally worth it.

I am sorry if I didn't describe the problem clearly in the first post but I was super frustrated and angry and in hindsight I should have waited. 

These are the pictures I managed to take with my phone I am sorry if they're not clear.

 

[jdrichard]

So if it's rolling one way but not the other, perhaps there is a problem where the banking pin is too close on one side and preventing the impulse jewel from escaping the mouth of the pallet fork. The other problem could be overbanking, where the pallet fork is snapped against the banking pin be for the impulse jewel enters the mouth. For this you need to make sure you place the fork on one side and make sure the impulse jewel is on the same side when you reinstall the complete balance.

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[Marc]

Looks like solid banking rather than pins so unlikely that the banking geometry is out.

More likely that the shellac on one of the pallet stones has failed and the stone has moved so far back into its housing that it no longer interacts with the escape wheel.

[Ammar]

yes it's solid banking not banking pins, I tried 3 different pallet forks and nothing changed do I don't think the pallet stones are the problem.

I lost hope at this point and I don't think this watch is gonna tick, I am so disappointed but failure is a part of the learning process thank you guys you have been really nice and helpful I hope my next pject turns out better than this one

[jdrichard]

Looks like solid banking rather than pins so unlikely that the banking geometry is out.
More likely that the shellac on one of the pallet stones has failed and the stone has moved so far back into its housing that it no longer interacts with the escape wheel.

A Marc Response


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[jdm]

24 minutes ago, Ammar said:

yes it's solid banking not banking pins, I tried 3 different pallet forks and nothing changed do I don't think the pallet stones are the problem.

In your pictures the pallet bridge is not installed, of course it has to be for parts to engage correctly. But that is not the point.
There are only two possibilities for your problem.

Escape wheel pivots broken or not fit in jewel holes
-- and/or --
Pallet fork pivots broken or not fit not in jewel holes

You will have to check, recheck, install one part at time, inspect with a loupe (do you have one ?) until you will find what's the case.

BTW, fitting a (Seiko/Orient) is not the easiest task, so no surprise you are having issue with that.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by jdm

[Nucejoe]

Faulty escape wheel.  

Replace the escape wheel, more than likely you be .

[Ammar]

Um so I decided to have a last try so this watch doesnt keep nagging me to the day I die (yes I am that kind of person) an I found out that the jewel and the spring of the escape whell are broken but I didn't notice them before I don't know why to be honest it's very obvious because there is a similar jewel and spring righ next to it (I thought it was normal) any way I tried to pressure fit a jewel from another scrap movement (one with open top idk what you call them) and the train spins freely but the escape wheel is running higher than the pallet fork and I think this was the problem from the get go.

I tried pushing jewel brass fitting abit lower so the escape wheel engages with the pallet fork but the train wheel became stiff and wouldn'spin properly.

[stevew]

Never give up put it down for a while, come back tomorrow, when brain is calmer. I have done same with assembling watches, one thing will not work and get so frustrated nearly ends in bin! Lol. Next day everything seems so much better.