Breaking grease

[PeterS]

My first time with autos. I believe that autos require breaking grease on the inside of the barrel wall. I looked at the service sheet but it doesn’t show oiling of the barrel wall (NH36). The greases (Moebius) I can see:

8212 – aluminium walls
8213 – brass walls
8217 – large barrel walls (guess - pocket watches, alarm clocks?)

How do I tell brass from aluminium without scraping the barrel to see what is under the plating?

One more important question. If I grease the main spring with say 8200, surely this will cross contaminate with the breaking grease on the barrel wall. Is not greasing perhaps the last inch of the spring the solution?

[CaptCalvin]

The service manual specifies replacing the entire barrel assembly at each service. I dont think Seiko intended for these to be oiled outside of the factory. I always thought these are solid steel on Seikos but I could be wrong. I don't think it's a big deal if there is a bit of cross contamination here. There WILL be cross contamination no matter how careful you are in this case.

[jdm]

8 hours ago, PeterS said:

I looked at the service sheet but it doesn’t show oiling of the barrel wall (NH36).

As mentioned already by all means don't mess with the barrel complete. It is not needed, and your will do more harm than good.

[JohnR725]

I'm attaching an image from the service bulletin for your watch. As the others have specified in the service bulletin it's a barrel complete. This is a relatively inexpensive watch I doubt that there's any parts available and trying to get a new mainspring for this would be hard if not impossible. So it really would be best just to leave it alone.

Then no need to worry about cross-contamination with 8200 because if you were servicing the mainspring barrel you would be replacing the mainspring which would be the preferred method. Then new mainsprings are supposed to be prelubricated which is why even if you have a tech sheet that shows the breaking grease there is no lubrication applied to the mainspring itself only the outer barrel wall and the arbor.

[PeterS]

Thank you for your answers.

This movement is purely for me to train on. Just like I used the 6497 and took it apart countless of times this one is going to be the one with extra complications that I want to use for learning. It does not matter if something goes wrong with the barrel complete, it’s never going to go in a watch.

I would like to take the barrel apart. I’ve seen Mark servicing the S726 and he uses breaking grease but does not mention which one and I don’t know which one to use. Any suggestions?

[jdm]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

This is a relatively inexpensive watch I doubt that there's any parts available and trying to get a new mainspring for this would be hard if not impossible. So it really would be best just to leave it alone.

We must also give the complete, info so:

1. That the barrel complete has to be replaced at each service isn't a fixed rule and certainly is not mentioned in the Seiko document. It should be replaced when the amplitude has dropped significantly and all the other factors influencing it have been excluded. In practice that can be decades of continued use. And the watch is left unwound the mainspring will not deteriorate at all.
2. The NH36 is an inexpensive mov.t but virtually all parts are made available. For example the above mentioned barrel complete cost £16.90 from Cousins UK. That is a significant portion of the complete mov't at just £30.95.
3. About opening the barrel see below by our Host Mark Lovick 
4. When doing the above the replacement mainspring is GR2378X. 

[jdm]

1 minute ago, PeterS said:

It does not matter if something goes wrong with the barrel complete, it’s never going to go in a watch.

Then why don't you practice with a mov't barrel that is designed to be opened and closed instead? So your skills will develop toward normal operation rather than something else.

[JohnR725]

 You are asking for recommendations here is another discussion showing another recommendation for breaking grease and how it's applied.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9953-kluber-p-125-vs-homemade/

[PeterS]

Thank you guys. Yes, it would have been easier if I had another movement that’s suitable for it however this is what I have now.
I’ll use the movement for learning, keep the barrel as it is for now and I might come across a thread/article where someone has successfully applied breaking grease to the wall (no doubt Mark will cover it in level 4). If not I could try different greases and see what results I get. From what I read I’d probably start with the P125.

Is this the same case for other Seiko movements? 7s26, 4R35, 6R15 and the older calibers?

[PeterS]

I wonder whether I could use the Seiko S-3?

This is the description:

Seiko S-3 Silicon Grease
For lubricating slipping attachments of automatic movements with self lubricating mainsprings.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/seiko-s3-grease

[jdm]

59 minutes ago, PeterS said:

Is this the same case for other Seiko movements? 7s26, 4R35, 6R15 and the older calibers?

All these have virtually the same sealed barrel. Do not open unless there is a proven benefit.

For older mov'ts consult the relevant service sheet. 

44 minutes ago, PeterS said:

I wonder whether I could use the Seiko S-3?

This is the description:

Seiko S-3 Silicon Grease

I don't think there is any silicon in this, and the description is wrong. 

Personally I would not spend £18.95 + VAT for something that is never going to go in a watch. And I would use proven Moebious products amentioned above for Swiss watches with a mainspring meant to be serviced. 

[CaptCalvin]

9 hours ago, jdm said:

Then why don't you practice with a mov't barrel that is designed to be opened and closed instead? So your skills will develop toward normal operation rather than something else.

I dont think it's too big a deal. I doubt there's any magic sealed inside. Seiko probably wants us to treat these as consumables to expedite the servicing process and maybe make a few more bucks from new barrel orders. We can open these if we really want to. Just lubricate these as any other barrel. There are no unicorn guts inside. I've opened a few and they come apart and go back together just as easily as any other.

Edited October 7, 2019 by CaptCalvin

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

I dont think it's too big a deal. I doubt there's any magic sealed inside. Seiko probably wants us to treat these as consumables to expedite the servicing process and maybe make a few more bucks from new barrel orders. We can open these if we want to. There are no unicorn guts inside. I've opened a few and they come apart and go back together just as easily as any other.

Of course these can be serviced, nobody said otherwise. In that sense above I linked a posting with the basic how-to, and a replacement mainspring reference. That being said Seiko did the right thing in making orderable the barrel complete only, here's why:

• They are actually built more tightly and less strong that a traditional one,s I know of at least of one beginner that posted having broke it while trying to open it. I've sent him a free replacement BTW.
• Being more tightly built, even if not technically sealed, makes so no external agent can enter. So the issue of meeting a "filthy dirty" mainspring is gone.
• Considering that the important point above is out of the equation what is exactly the remaining reasons left to service it?

1. That the braking grease has lost effectiveness and the mainspring slips while winding. But in fact that is not only a function of the "semi-braking" agent, but mainly of the bridle design, materials used, and mainspring strength. I can tell you that Seiko did good in that area, as I've never seen faulty Seiko barrel.
2. That the mainspring has lost it's elastic properties after much, much use.  Again, I've never seen one so far. Personally I've replaced one on a 7S26 because I blamed insufficient amplitude to an old MS. Guess what, the new one didn't made any difference.

[CaptCalvin]

Hmmm it is true that I remember these taking more force to pop open. For the record I dont recommend messing with these barrels. But if NH35 is all you have and you want to start tinkering it's not the worst idea to start on these being as inexpensive as they are. I myself started on NH35s. I find them relatively sensitive to proper lubrication as well so it really conditioned me to be precise with oil application.

[jdm]

21 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

I find them relatively sensitive to proper lubrication as well so it really conditioned me to be precise with oil application.

Correct, I've found myself a good improvement when I've started using 9415 on the pallet stones.

[PeterS]

Exactly, the NH36 is cheap and I thought it would be a good starting point.

I will not take the barrel apart, for now. I want to get used to the extra complications I’m not used to and I want to see the results after reassembly. If I take the barrel apart now and the amplitude or something else is not right I will not know what the problem is unless I buy a new barrel.
After I’ve stripped it and put it back together several times and I’m confident with this movement the barrel is definitely coming apart and I want to see the results after reassembly.

Captain, what grease did you use on these?

[m1ks]

May be of help a little.

I find that carefully using the blade of a Swann Morton scalpel helps to separate and start lifting the lid of Seiko mainspring barrels, they can be more easily damaged with a screwdriver tip for example.