This balance is not moving right

[AndyHull]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I don,t work on seiko, this may have removable collet and could be staffed.

There are balance staffs on ebay for that movement, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to change.

[AndyHull]

59 minutes ago, jdm said:

IPA, not water, dissolve shellac and even the glue used on etachron HS studs. As mentioned by Master nickelsilver and most cleaning threads. 

IPA will indeed dissolve shellac. Water will eventually damage shellac (which is why you get watermarks on French polished tables, shellac is very slightly absorbent), however it would probably take many hours in water, or very hot water  to loosen the jewels in a balance, so in the real world, it is generally not a problem.

[nickelsilver]

It depends on the alcohol concentration too. I use 99.9% isopropyl, but have a distiller so at some point it ends up a bit less. 70% would take significantly longer to clear out shellac. Anyways I always check and often leave parts in for 6 minutes or so in the alcohol BUT I adjust stones a couple of times a day, so I just pop the fork on the heater which is always on and add shellac. If you don't want to do this keep soak time under a minute for (warm) 99% alcohol and maybe a minute or two for lesser concentrations, unless you're planning on reshellacing.

[ITProDad]

There are balance staffs on ebay for that movement, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to change.

Seiko balances complete are usually not too expensive. Might be the safer and more complete solution?


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[ITProDad]

It depends on the alcohol concentration too. I use 99.9% isopropyl, but have a distiller so at some point it ends up a bit less. 70% would take significantly longer to clear out shellac. Anyways I always check and often leave parts in for 6 minutes or so in the alcohol BUT I adjust stones a couple of times a day, so I just pop the fork on the heater which is always on and add shellac. If you don't want to do this keep soak time under a minute for (warm) 99% alcohol and maybe a minute or two for lesser concentrations, unless you're planning on reshellacing.

You distill your own alcohol and you make ISOPROPYL? [emoji37]


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[nickelsilver]

8 hours ago, ITProDad said:

You distill your own alcohol and you make ISOPROPYL?


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I have a cleaning machine that was designed to use isopropyl as the rinse, and it has a built in distiller. Clean, go in the rinse, push a button and it drains into the reservoir, then about 6 minutes later there's fresh alcohol in the rinse container. It's slick! Hasn't been made in about 50 years (Greiner told me people were using it for other alcohols... the distillation temp of ethanol is close enough to work haha).

[AndyHull]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have a cleaning machine that was designed to use isopropyl as the rinse, and it has a built in distiller. Clean, go in the rinse, push a button and it drains into the reservoir, then about 6 minutes later there's fresh alcohol in the rinse container. It's slick! Hasn't been made in about 50 years (Greiner told me people were using it for other alcohols... the distillation temp of ethanol is close enough to work haha).

We have got to see pictures of that... not that I'm planning on taking up the twin traditional Scottish pursuits of uisge-beatha production and dodging the Excise man.

HM Revenue and Customs can relax, I'm just intrigued about the mechanics of it all (honest). I presume there is a small electric heater, but how does the condenser work?

Edited September 24, 2019 by AndyHull

[nickelsilver]

36 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

We have got to see pictures of that... not that I'm planning on taking up the twin traditional Scottish pursuits of uisge-beatha production and dodging the Excise man.

HM Revenue and Customs can relax, I'm just intrigued about the mechanics of it all (honest). I presume there is a small electric heater, but how does the condenser work?

There she is! The first bath is the cleaner, it's circulated through a filter which also has a magnet, and is ultrasonic of course. The second bath is the alcohol. The reservoir is in the case at the bottom right, it's a bit over 1 liter capacity. The condenser is behind the 1st bath, the vent at the top left is where the hot air (it's air cooled) escapes, and is also the dryer for the parts (clever!). The rightmost section is the eplilame treatment. There is stearic acid in the bottom, which gets heated to its melting point; the parts sit above that and with the lid closed sit for about a minute. This deposits a microscopic layer of the stearic acid vapor, which is the original epilame (Moebius used to sell it in liquid form as Aretol).

 

I don't know what I'll do when the old girl dies...

[AndyHull]

7 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I don't know what I'll do when the old girl dies...

Why, fix it of course. What else would you do?

That is  pretty sophisticated little machine.

When was it produced?

From the styling, I would think it was designed in the late 1960s, but I could of course be wrong.
 

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

Why, fix it of course. What else would you do?

That is  pretty sophisticated little machine.

When was it produced?

From the styling, I would think it was designed in the late 1960s, but I could of course be wrong.
 

Mid 60s, the ultrasonic is tube (valve) based, as well as the switching for the distiller. I asked Greiner why they stopped making it, and in addition to the misuse for ethanol, they said it would need lots of mods to meet newer safety standards and would end up 3 times the size and 5 times the price. It's extraordinarily well built for sure.

[AndyHull]

Tube based equipment is generally not too bad to fix. Despite what you might think, tubes are still relatively easy to source. If it does ever have any issues, post them here. I'm sure someone can figure out a fix.

Edited September 24, 2019 by AndyHull

[ITProDad]

I have a cleaning machine that was designed to use isopropyl as the rinse, and it has a built in distiller. Clean, go in the rinse, push a button and it drains into the reservoir, then about 6 minutes later there's fresh alcohol in the rinse container. It's slick! Hasn't been made in about 50 years (Greiner told me people were using it for other alcohols... the distillation temp of ethanol is close enough to work haha).

Very cool! Or brilliant! Depending on where you reside. That is an excellent idea


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[aac58]

The donor arrived this morning. I've cleaned the motion works and the base plate, I've lost one endstone and I've installed the other one on the "new" balance bridge, and I've replaced the faulty balance with this one.

I'm quite pleased... No, I'm very happy to be honest, I'm slowly getting better results.

 

 

[aac58]

BTW, sometimes I need to grab the incablock endstones with my tweezers, for example to turn them upside-down or to hold them while oiling. It's in this moment when, sometimes, the endstone jumps to the ether, from where they look at me and laugh.

I'm using Dumond nº2 tweezers. Maybe this is not the correct tweezer for this task? Or is it just a matter of practice?

[watchweasol]

Hi When handling jewels and endstones, or need to inspect the same it is sometimes prudent to use a bit of Rodico to stop them from dissapearing. Some times caused by gripping the parts too strongly. You will get more adept the more you do. Also when removing shocks etc do it in an enclosed space (poly bag) it limits the distance they travel and you know they are in the bag somewhere !! 

[jdrichard]

So what was the problem with the wobbly balance. I now need to know because the suspense is killing me.


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[aac58]

6 hours ago, jdrichard said:

So what was the problem with the wobbly balance

The pivot on the bridge side was broken.

[jdrichard]

The pivot on the bridge side was broken.

Thanks. I do make balance staffs:)


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[anilv]

On 9/26/2019 at 2:42 AM, aac58 said:

BTW, sometimes I need to grab the incablock endstones with my tweezers, for example to turn them upside-down or to hold them while oiling. It's in this moment when, sometimes, the endstone jumps to the ether, from where they look at me and laugh.

I'm using Dumond nº2 tweezers. Maybe this is not the correct tweezer for this task? Or is it just a matter of practice?

Just use your other hand to shelter/cover the cap stone as you try to flip it over. It helps a bit, not 100% but better than nothing.

Anilv

[Nucejoe]

On 9/26/2019 at 1:45 AM, jdrichard said:

So what was the problem with the wobbly balance. I now need to know because the suspense is killing me.


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Hi jd,  a Simple feel of side and endshake at the cock side. One can tell No pivot inside the jewel hole.  either pivot jumps out or no pivot( broken). One or two such observations you,ll be as good with such diagnostic of pivot as you are with making them.  Regards joe

[oldhippy]

I’ve been keeping my eye on this, since I added my help. A good lesson learned here. Always pay attention to the train and most important the escapement. Nice to know you have it fixed.

[aac58]

On 9/25/2019 at 7:29 PM, aac58 said:

... I've lost one endstone and ...

Found!!!

I've downloaded a new video editor program, and I was playing a bit to get used to it. Then I saw someting below the balance that shouldn't be there...

[AndyHull]

Is that an "extra" one from the donor, or is it meant to be installed in this movement?

[AndyHull]

BTW I "found" something similar in my HMT spares the other day, unfortunately it was the cause of the spares movement's woes.

One of the lugs was missing. In this case, the reason for its demise was corrosion (as you can see from the nasty blotches on the surface of the jewel). On the plus side, I already have a "spare" spare one, and replacement HMTs are cheap as chips anyway/

[anilv]

On 10/3/2019 at 5:36 AM, AndyHull said:

BTW I "found" something similar in my HMT spares the other day, unfortunately it was the cause of the spares movement's woes.

One of the lugs was missing. In this case, the reason for its demise was corrosion (as you can see from the nasty blotches on the surface of the jewel). On the plus side, I already have a "spare" spare one, and replacement HMTs are cheap as chips anyway/

HMT and Citizens use same shock absorbers.. I've used parts from the handwind HMT to fix Citizen 0200 movements.

Anilv