This balance is not moving right

[aac58]

I'm a bit dissapointed. This Seiko 6119 is, I think, the movement I've cleaned the best, just to discover that the balance is swinging strangely. I don't know the reason, probably damaged pivots or something? I've taken the endstones apart to clean them, this is something very intimidating for me and I just hope I have installed them back properly. AFAIK these endstones are identical up and down so I cleaned them together.

I guess I have to look for another balance!

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by aac58

[aac58]

I'm seeing the video again and again trying to understand the problem. Could it be I have installed the balance cock endstone upside down? I mean with the flat side looking outwards and the domed side to the pivot?

I'm asking because starting at 1:00 the pivot on the balance cock seems to be the cause of that strange swing. What do you think?

Edited September 22, 2019 by aac58

[oldhippy]

Looking at that balance wobble, what if the balance pivots like? To much oil on that stone. Are the jewels good, no cracks and good round holes. Make sure you have the caps back right. I think on close inspection you have problems with the balance staff pivots. Can you post a photo of the balance showing both pivots of the staff. 

[aac58]

I will take pictures of the balance pivots and post them ASAP. Thank you OH.

[jdm]

Check balance endshake (search forum on the subject). Post a picture of the mainspring also. With any mov.t but Seiko especially having good amplitude and pattern is a delicate equation solved only when the main factors are 100% perfect. 

[Nucejoe]

Pivot jumping out of jewel hole, worn out short, broken, excessive endshake. 

[Nucejoe]

Musical presentarion is impressive acc.

Good impulse delivered, I wouldn,t suspect the MS. 

Fault at pivot.   May need just endshake reduction.

[stevew]

Did it have shake before the Strip Down? did you put in Jewels right way up?

[aac58]

4 minutes ago, stevew said:

Did it have shake before the Strip Down? did you put in Jewels right way up?

The answer to both questions is I don't know

I'll take the balance off tomorrow to see the pivots and probably I'll also take the balance cock jewel off to make sure it's in the correct possition, which I think it is. I'll post the results.

[ITProDad]

The answer to both questions is I don't know [emoji20]
I'll take the balance off tomorrow to see the pivots and probably I'll also take the balance cock jewel off to make sure it's in the correct possition, which I think it is. I'll post the results.

Hello, AAC58. You’ve done a great job, so far. Don’t give up! The warble has a cause and if it is the only thing out of plum, you will be ok! Look at one thing at a time. The order is not imperative. Just pick one thing, try it, observe and decide from there. My bet would be a bent pivot or the balance wheel itself may be warped. Just pick a starting and start! Could be more than one issue, so video the motion at each change and compare

Then, when you succeed, post the results. Anymore questions, come back and ask.

Go get’em!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aac58]

I have a very cheap USB microscope that I like for inspection, but unfortunately sometimes it freezes and I have to wait until the battery goes off because when that happens I cannot even turn it off.

Using it I made a photo of the balance pivots, but then it frozed. Anyway I don't think there's something that can be seen on that photo. Of course, taking the balance out of it's bridge is something beyond my skills, so I only tried to pull the balance apart, but with the HS coils in the pivot's area I was seeing nothing.

I also took the balance bridge jewel apart, with some exciting ping moments when installing it back again. The end stone was in the correct position, so that was not the problem.

I've taken a short video of the balance pivot turning in place without the jewel and chaton, I don't know it that can help to diagnose the pivot, probably not, but I cannot share the video right now.

Anyway, I have a donor on its way from the Netherlands. These balance wheels are not easy to find as a single spare part. I'll change it when it arrives.

Thank you all for your advice and encouragement.

[AndyHull]

Looking at the video, my gut feeling is that the top pivot (balance cock end pivot) is worn elliptical, bent/damaged or perhaps even missing. The view down through the top jewel doesn't seem to show any signs of  the pivot moving, which I would expect to see when looking down through the jewel, suggesting it is short or missing.

Can you feel excessive vertical or lateral movement in the balance if you move it gently?

It should be possible to replace the balance staff, if this is the case, but that may be outwith the scope of your tooling, as it is not a simple job without the right tools.

Edited September 23, 2019 by AndyHull

[aac58]

30 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

...Can you feel excessive vertical or lateral movement in the balance if you move it gently? ...

Yes, I forgot to mention that I also checked the endshake, and although I haven't done it before so I don't have some experience to compare to, I think it moves too much up and down. Also with the naked eye I can see that it slows and the amplitude falls when I turn it to dial up, so I'm quite sure that pivot is damaged.

[Nucejoe]

All you got to do is to follow the advice from OH.

Show photos of both pivots.

Regards

 

[watchweasol]

Right on Joe without confirming that the pivots are intact there is no point second guessing. Judging the movement looking at the video as Andy remarked "top pivot" worn broken etc.

[jdm]

3 hours ago, aac58 said:

I have a very cheap USB microscope that I like for inspection, but unfortunately sometimes it freezes and I have to wait until the battery goes off because when that happens I cannot even turn it off.

Can you post at least a timegrapher picture, which will tell a lot. Yesterday I had an old 7S26 producing triple, quadruple lines and it was just the HS touching on the top of the regulator producing the extra noises. With just a little convincing I set it horizontal and got single, 99% straight lines. I have not see a situation yet where a microscope of any type saved my day,

[aac58]

Hey! I've found a "secret" reset button on the scope! No need to wait anymore.

Here are the pivots. The one on the balance bridge isn't easy to see, but here it is (or should I say here it isn't )

 

[Nucejoe]

Good clean though, How did you clean? What type cleaning machine and solutions did you use?

Beware ,Genuine seiko balance complete are nearly non existant, low grade ones are passed on as Genuine. 

I don,t work on seiko, this may have removable collet and could be staffed.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Nucejoe
Pivot seen better from side view

[jdm]

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Beware ,Genuine seiko balance complete are nearly non existant, low grade ones are passed on as Genuine. 

What do you mean? I buy from Cousins UK, they are genuine, and they work as they should.
True  is that for the price of one you can get can a lot of 5 Chinese made, but they make no attempt to counterfeit.
 

[aac58]

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Good clean though, How did you clean? What type cleaning machine and solutions did you use?

Beware ,Genuine seiko balance complete are nearly non existant, low grade ones are passed on as Genuine. 

I don,t work on seiko, this may have removable collet and could be staffed.

Thank you. I have a donor on its way, it will arrive in three or four days and I'll clean it to use its balance. I know I'll end up searching for a donor for the donor, as always.

My amateur cleaning procedure is a bit long and not necessarily correct, but here I go:

1.- Hot water + detergent + amonia: 20 minutes in my cheap chinese ultrasonic.

2.- Distilled water: 20 minutes in the US.

3.- Drying with a hair dryer.

4.- Naphta: 20 mins. in the US

5.- Drying with a hair dryer.

6.- IPA: 20 mins in the SU

7.- Drying with a hair dryer.

After the cleaning I inspect the jewels and use woodsticks/rodico if needed.

Edited September 23, 2019 by aac58

[nickelsilver]

Thank you. I have a donor on its way, it will arrive in three or four days and I'll clean it to use its balance. I know I'll end up searching for a donor for the donor, as always.
My amateur cleaning procedure is a bit long and not necessarily correct, but here I go:
1.- Hot water + detergent + amonia: 20 minutes in my cheap chinese ultrasonic.
2.- Distilled water: 20 minutes in the US.
3.- Drying with a hair dryer.
4.- Naphta: 20 mins. in the US
5.- Drying with a hair dryer.
6.- IPA: 20 mins in the SU
7.- Drying with a hair dryer.
After the cleaning I inspect the jewels and use woodsticks/rodico if needed.

It's not a bad procedure. I'd do two distilled rinses after the initial wash, but only 5 mins or so, then in IPA for 30 seconds to soak up the water (more and you risk softening or dissolving the shellac), the hair dryer. You're probably clean enough with that to skip the naphtha.

[aac58]

Oh yes, balance and pallet fork doesn't get to step 6.

[Nucejoe]

Thank you aac.   Amature cleaning proceedure?   I,d say looks real clean.

Dose hot water not damage shellac?  What water temperature is hot?

1 hour ago, jdm said:

What do you mean? I buy from Cousins UK, they are genuine, and they work as they should.
True  is that for the price of one you can get can a lot of 5 Chinese made, but they make no attempt to counterfeit.
 

Good to know, Genuine is available, I guess at cousins UK. Or esslinger and expensive. 

[aac58]

I haven't had problems with the shellac and the hot water so far. I don't know the temp but I can stand it with my hand, maybe 50º?

My US is a very cheap chinese one, with no temperature control. However after the 20 minutes the fluids (including the water) get out hotter than when I put them in! Maybe it's not a planned feature, but a side effect of the internals of the device 

Edited September 23, 2019 by aac58

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, aac58 said:

I haven't had problems with the shellac and the hot water so far. I don't know the temp but I can stand it with my hand, maybe 50º?

IPA, not water, dissolve shellac and even the glue used on etachron HS studs. As mentioned by Master nickelsilver and most cleaning threads.