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E.N. Welch "Verdi" Wall Clock Pendulum. Help!

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Hi, 

Can anyone please help me figure out how to fix the pendulum in this old Welch wall clock? There seems to be a suspension spring mount missing and there is no spring, crutch etc. Just the pendulum rod with a slot in it and a hook on the top. From pics on line I can see that there should be some sort of brass rod crutch assembly from the slot but I have no idea how this attaches or interacts with the pinion what the hook on the pendulum attaches to and how/if a suspension spring should come into play. Any ideas anyone? 

 

Thanks

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58 minutes ago, clockboy said:

It looks very much like an Ansonia movement. Check out pics of these movements to see the assembly of their pendulums.

I have no problem getting pictures of the movement of the Verdi clock or anything similar. But I'm unable to get a pic of the pendulum assembly of the Verdi or anything that has the same configuration. I'm stuck! :huh:

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The pendulum would hang from a suspension spring attached to a simple slotted brass post which you have correctly identified as missing. the escapement crutch would then fit into the slot on the pendulum rod, the pendulum would have a brass slotted plate over the slot cut in the rod to prevent wear of the slot.

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32 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

The pendulum would hang from a suspension spring attached to a simple slotted brass post which you have correctly identified as missing. the escapement crutch would then fit into the slot on the pendulum rod, the pendulum would have a brass slotted plate over the slot cut in the rod to prevent wear of the slot.

Thanks.  How does the crutch fit onto the pinion? I'm thinking I may have to make parts for this with some trial and error. But that's fun...

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by pinion as relating to this question?, if you think along the lines of a Vienna regulator and how the pendulum is hung on one of those this clock would be the same, the post attached to the backboard would be slotted and the suspension spring would be held in place with a pin, the crutch which hangs down the back of the movement only has to engage with the pendulum rod via the slot cut into the rod , this type of suspension spring would be the type your clock requires,

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/by-size-with-stamped-hole

The suspension post would be similar to this but much shorter in length:

https://www.bckntime.com/jauch-96-grandfather-clock-suspension-post/

 

 

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Thanks for the info. When I say pinion I mean the part circled in this pic. How does the crutch fit to this and what would the crutch look like? Sorry if I'm a bit clueless...

20190920_205640.jpg

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The slot in the pendulum rod is way too low down for that to fit. My understanding is that there should be a brass rod crutch to fit onto this part but I cannot find a pic or diagram of how.

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I cant see why there would have to be any other part the L shape crutch only has to pass through a slot on the pendulum, are you sure that the pendulum is the correct one for the clock? it looks like someone has tried to alter the slot on the rod at some stage because its pretty chewed up at the back.

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Take a look at this post, this is a Verdi with a view of the back of the movement and the single piece crutch, which is much longer than the one on your clock, but Welch did make both long and short pendulum drop versions, I suspect on your clock either the pendulum is incorrect or someone as altered the length of the crutch.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/welch-verdi-movement-help-please.33377/

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Thanks I've read that post before and a couple of others on this movement. Particularly this one https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/welch-verdi-pendulum-assembly.154830/ If you look at the attached pics carefully you can see the brass rod (that I'm calling the crutch) attached to the pendulum rod behind the movement. I'm sure this brass rod attaches to the part I circled previously that you are calling the crutch. :) I'm new to all the terms so forgive me if I get anything wrong! ^_^ It's not impossible that the pendulum and rod aren't original to the clock but very unlikely. Clock has been in the family since  early 1900s at least possibly longer. Come to think of it though why is the suspension spring mount missing? It's entirely possible one of my ancestors has fiddled with it...

It does make sense that the slot would fit to the part i circled as you suggest but it doesn't and the evidence of the pic I've attached suggests there is another part. If it wasn't for this pic and another I've seen with the brass rod attached the pendulum I'd agree the pendulum rod was the wrong one for the clock.  

H1101-L117432953.jpg

IMG_3083.JPG

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I can only see on the pictures that the crutch is made of brass and much longer than that on your clock, if the crutch on your clock did not engage with a slot on the pendulum it looks like it would fowl the pendulum rod because when attached to the suspension post via a suspension spring there would not be enough distance between it and the crutch.

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I agree and that's partly why I've been a bit puzzled. I assumed I was missing something but now that I'm getting a little clearer in my head how it works, or should work,  it looks like either the crutch or the pendulum has been replaced. Or tried to be replaced.

Question is which? It's maybe quite telling that the suspension post and spring are missing. I think they've been removed rather than just fallen off. The existing crutch looks to be a piece of piano wire soldered on to the part the pallet is fixed to (see pic). I know the clock hasn't worked for over 70 years at least. I suspect the original pendulum assembly was damaged when the clock was moved fairly on in it's life. There is no way to access the movement on these without removing the hands and the casing so you couldn't easily remove the pendulum when moving the clock. It's described as a School House Clock so wasn't really meant for domestic use.

An American clock in Scotland back in late 19th early 20th Century would have been an expensive repair and my great grandfather was not wealthy. No one knows how he came by it in the first place. My late father fiddled with it in the 1970s and he may have removed the suspension post and even fitted the existing crutch. He never got it working though. 

So do you think a good course of action here would be to refit a suspension post and spring and cut a slot in the pendulum to see if the current crutch actually works? Or remove the crutch and fit a new brass rod leading down to the existing slot? I'm thinking the latter but I'm still a bit fuzzy on how the brass rod crutch attached the pendulum should look. I can see I'd need to make a wear plate at least. And I imagine I may need a little trial and error to get the right spring length.

The actual movement seems to be in very good condition with no wear at all. Which backs up the idea that it hasn't worked for a very long time. The chiming train works perfectly. It will need a clean and an oil though which I'm prepared to take on. And yes i know about the danger of the springs! :blink:

It's been very helpful to bounce this off someone.

 

20190921_074754.jpg

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If it is an Ansonia then it is highly likely the bushings will be worn. The materials used for these was of poor quality. Is there by any chance any numbers stamped on the plate if so it might be easier to find the model.  

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34 minutes ago, clockboy said:

If it is an Ansonia then it is highly likely the bushings will be worn. The materials used for these was of poor quality. Is there by any chance any numbers stamped on the plate if so it might be easier to find the model.  

It's not an Ansonia, E.N.Welch where manufactures in there own right from 1864 the company was eventually bought out by the Sessions family and became known as the Sessions Clock Company in 1903. But I think your thoughts on the bushing will hold true to this movement as well.

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Somehow, I missed this one. I have not gone through all the posts.

The s/spring hangs from the small bracket behind the movement, red circle; the pendulum and its rod are attached to the s/spring. The crutch fits into a slot in the pendulum. The s/spring and pendulum fitting is similar to a Vienna wall clock, the proper ones not the cheap German type.

H1101-L117432953.thumb.jpg.1a3d9cb5be0d9413e95e7a73197fa1aa.jpg

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As far as I can tell the gears aren't overly loose and there is no visible wear. Of course that doesn't mean to say there isn't wear. At the end of the day all I really want to do is to spruce up the casing to look good enough to hang on my hall wall and have it working enough that I can demo it working to friends and family. It doesn't have to keep time or even keep running any length of time. Maybe a few hours max. 

 
I spoke to my 96 year old mother today who last remembers the clock working around WW2. It moved from a farm workers house, to a flat, to a large house and then to my house over a period of 70 years. It has never worked since leaving the farm cottage and spent a lot of time in lofts. Shame. So I'd like to bring some life back into it as it's really the only family heirloom I have. Initially I was just going to do up the casing but when I looked at the movement inside and got the chiming train going I was completely fascinated by it. I've no experience with clocks but I have a lot of modelling experience and understand how to work with metal, wood and plastic. This is going to a fun learning curve and journey and may well spark a whole new hobby. :)

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To find out if the slot is in the right place, get a piece of wood wide enough to take the movement, use a 3/8th inch bolt and cut a slot in the end to take the suspention spring, drill a hole near the top of the wood and attach the bolt with a nut. hook the pendulum onto the suspention spring, attach the movement to the board where the crutch is at about the middle of the slot on the pendulum, if the movement is working? the clock should work, attach the hands and see if it is keeping time, which I doubt as I think the slot is way to low, anyway now you have this set up you can just move the movement UP or down till you find the right place for the slot. You do not need to cut the slot while trying to find the right place,  just drill a hole a 1/16th of an inch wider than the crutch, you may end up with a few holes however when about in the right place then cut the slot an 1/2 inch above and below the hole, you can fill to holes or just buy a new pendulum stick.

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Thanks for everyone's help. The clock is now restored and running fine. I made a brass post for the suspension spring and attached some brass rod to the existing crutch to lengthen it. I did suffer a disaster when the escapement snapped when I was trying to bend it a little. But I made another out of an old feeler gauge and it works very well. Actually keeping very good time. Sadly the little brass trigger that initiates the chime broke and I'll need to dismantle the entire movement to repair it. But that's for another day (I didn't really want it chiming anyway as this thing makes a racket!) I'm happy the clock is running again after about 80 years and my first attempt at clock repair has actually been a success! :)

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