Seiko 6309 - balance diagnosis

[Khan]

Hello

Thanks to helpful members here, I managed to dismantle the dial followed by servicing the movement. While final testing, I experience lack of swing in the balance wheel (as before service as well). I can't see any visual disalignments or damages. It behaves as if it was gummed up, even though power in pallet fork. Note that it runs freely when lying upside down on the bench. I'd be very thankful if someone can spot the issue. 

Kind regards

Khan

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Khan

[Melt]

Hairspring looks bunched to the left in second photo. 

Does the train run freely without the pallet fork?

Did you clean the mainspring and clean and oil the diashock jewels?  

[Khan]

Hi Melt

Yes, the train runs freely when pallet fork removed. The way I clean it is by bathing it in alcohol, lift the wheel and use a blower. I removed the diashock jewel but couldn't remove the jewel from its rear "cover", don't know the trick without it flies across the room. 

[Nucejoe]

 Dose it not run at all? 

If the BW turns freely in both DU& DD positions. I would check the impulse jewel,  may be out of beat or faulty.

 

 

 

 

[Khan]

Hi Nucejoe

It runs in a low beat - barely a quarter turn right/left. The impulse jewel looks intact to me. My local watchmaker couldn't see any faults by visual check. But he didn't removed the balance from movement for further analysis. 

[Nucejoe]

Hi khan, 

To check for in beat position of the impulse jewel;

I set the piece on bench dial down (DD), let the balance come to rest, keep an eye on the fork whilst slightly turning the BW clock/anticlock direction. Impulse pin is in beat if a slight move of the wheel causes the fork to move. if not in beat, bring the impulse into beat position by moving the stud arm, mobile stud carrier on your movement is to facilitate bringing the impulse jewel into the right position to receive energy from the fork horn. 

Another method is to check if ,( impulse jewel ,staff pivot, escape pivot fall on a streight line.

[Nucejoe]

Check ths staffs endshake, endstones may be pushing on pivots.

Observe the hairspring from the movemsnts side view, see if it rubbing, the coil should be level, concentric.

Regards joe

[Nucejoe]

Check ths staffs endshake, endstones may be pushing on pivots.

Observe the hairspring from the movemsnts side view, see if it rubbing, fouling itself , , , the coil should be level, concentric.

Regards joe

[clockboy]

If everything is perfectly clean, lubricated and you have no damaged jewels it must be lack of power. Check the mainspring, barrel and barrel jewels. 

[aac58]

12 hours ago, Khan said:

...The way I clean it is by bathing it in alcohol, lift the wheel and use a blower...

Probably not directly related to the lack of amplitude you're experiencing, but if you are talking here about the balance wheel I recomend you not to use alcohol to clean it nor the pallet fork, as it might melt the shellac that glue the impulse jewel and the pallet stones in place.

Low amplitude can be caused by quite a few things as others have mentioned, also wear or faulty pivots, dirt or improper oiling. I hope you didn't oiled the pallet pivots/jewels, did you?

Edited September 12, 2019 by aac58

[Nucejoe]

35 minutes ago, aac58 said:

Probably not directly related to the lack of amplitude you're experiencing, but if you are talking here about the balance wheel I recomend you not to use alcohol to clean it nor the pallet fork, as it might melt the shellac that glue the impulse jewel and the pallet stones in place.

Low amplitude can be caused by quite a few things as others have mentioned, also wear or faulty pivots, dirt or improper oiling. I hope you didn't oiled the pallet pivots/jewels, did you?

Balance pivot dose look worn short in the pic. @Khan what lubricant did you use on escape teeth? Suppliment power manually to compensate for MS.

[stevew]

If you remove the pallet fork, and put balance back in, does the balance run freely. I had a similar problem with one of Jewels to the Balance Wheel was dirty, even though looked fine at a glance. 

[anilv]

If it runs fine dial up but doesn't dial down high probability the balance jewel on the dial side is dirty. You need to clean/oil that again.

Another issue you can check is if the hairspiring is out of flat. Look at the balance while installed on the movement.. it should be parallel with the balance spokes and the whole movement in general. If it is slightly tilted it will hit either the underside of the balance cock or the balance itself. This might only manifest itself in one position.

Good luck.

Anilv

[Khan]

Hello all

Thanks to all the constructive advices -

I removed the pallet fork (no lubrication in the top/botton jewel, but moebius 9415 for pallet stones on the way) and installed the balance and it has the same slow swing rate. I re-cleaned the diashock jewels in isopropylalcohol (any better cleaning alternative)?. Now it´s swinging freely and much better! + - max 10 sec per day when laying down but loosing 1.5 minute per when upside down according to my clock tuner app. I think the hairspring is few degrees out of level, see attached image.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Khan

[Nucejoe]

Did you remove jewels to clean? Peg the jewels?  How do you know if all dirt is removed?  I guess not.

If you will, just drop some naphta on top of both shock springs, and fork pivots.

you are likely to witness excellent amplitude, whcih means jewels are not clean enough. If the cause of poor amplitude is not found right there, we move onto checking other possible causes, like impulse not in beat, HS rubbing etc.

Regards joe.

 

 

[anilv]

Loosen the screw that holds the hairspring stud (the screw that goes in sideways) and try to move the stud up or down a bit...sometimes thats enough to get it level.

Anilv

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, anilv said:

Loosen the screw that holds the hairspring stud (the screw that goes in sideways) and try to move the stud up or down a bit...sometimes thats enough to get it level.

Anilv

Yes indeed. 

[Khan]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:02 AM, Nucejoe said:

Did you remove jewels to clean? Peg the jewels?  How do you know if all dirt is removed?  I guess not.

If you will, just drop some naphta on top of both shock springs, and fork pivots.

you are likely to witness excellent amplitude, whcih means jewels are not clean enough. If the cause of poor amplitude is not found right there, we move onto checking other possible causes, like impulse not in beat, HS rubbing etc.

Regards joe.

 

 

Hi Joe

You were right. The issue was decades old stuck oil in balance top/bottom jewels, on which I had to use pegwood a couple of times. Even the caps were stuck and not easy to remove. Now it's running and keeping time well!

Edited September 25, 2019 by Khan

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Khan said:

Hi Joe

You were right. The issue was decades old stuck oil in balance top/bottom jewels, on which I had to use pegwood a couple of times. Even the caps were stuck and not easy to remove. Now it's running and keeping time well!

Thanks for letting me know, A drop of naphta, deisel fuel, avgas etc on jewels, temporarily frees the pivots which may be stuck in dried oil.  I recommend making a habbit of its use to anytime we suspect a lubricant issue.

I also recommend finding and fixing as many faults as we can, prior to final clean, But I am self though so not all my techniques may agree with scholastic teachings. Regards

Edited September 25, 2019 by Nucejoe
Oh

[stevew]

Glad you have it going. I had same problem cleaned the jewels without removal and did no difference. Had to remove them and clean properly, that worked. Just shows how sensitive the Balance is. I use alcohol too, well the 99% isapropyl, the other in Bottle is for de-stressing