Jump to content

Seiko 6309 - balance diagnosis


Khan

Recommended Posts

Hello

Thanks to helpful members here, I managed to dismantle the dial followed by servicing the movement. While final testing, I experience lack of swing in the balance wheel (as before service as well). I can't see any visual disalignments or damages. It behaves as if it was gummed up, even though power in pallet fork. Note that it runs freely when lying upside down on the bench. I'd be very thankful if someone can spot the issue. 

Kind regards

Khan

 

Screenshot_20190911-222546.png

Screenshot_20190911-222537.png

Screenshot_20190911-222528.png

Edited by Khan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Melt

Yes, the train runs freely when pallet fork removed. The way I clean it is by bathing it in alcohol, lift the wheel and use a blower. I removed the diashock jewel but couldn't remove the jewel from its rear "cover", don't know the trick without it flies across the room. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nucejoe

It runs in a low beat - barely a quarter turn right/left. The impulse jewel looks intact to me. My local watchmaker couldn't see any faults by visual check. But he didn't removed the balance from movement for further analysis. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi khan, 

To check for in beat position of the impulse jewel;

I set the piece on bench dial down (DD), let the balance come to rest, keep an eye on the fork whilst slightly turning the BW clock/anticlock direction. Impulse pin is in beat if a slight move of the wheel causes the fork to move. if not in beat, bring the impulse into beat position by moving the stud arm, mobile stud carrier on your movement is to facilitate bringing the impulse jewel into the right position to receive energy from the fork horn. 

Another method is to check if ,( impulse jewel ,staff pivot, escape pivot fall on a streight line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Khan said:

...The way I clean it is by bathing it in alcohol, lift the wheel and use a blower...

Probably not directly related to the lack of amplitude you're experiencing, but if you are talking here about the balance wheel I recomend you not to use alcohol to clean it nor the pallet fork, as it might melt the shellac that glue the impulse jewel and the pallet stones in place.

Low amplitude can be caused by quite a few things as others have mentioned, also wear or faulty pivots, dirt or improper oiling. I hope you didn't oiled the pallet pivots/jewels, did you?

Edited by aac58
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, aac58 said:

Probably not directly related to the lack of amplitude you're experiencing, but if you are talking here about the balance wheel I recomend you not to use alcohol to clean it nor the pallet fork, as it might melt the shellac that glue the impulse jewel and the pallet stones in place.

Low amplitude can be caused by quite a few things as others have mentioned, also wear or faulty pivots, dirt or improper oiling. I hope you didn't oiled the pallet pivots/jewels, did you?

Balance pivot dose look worn short in the pic. @Khan what lubricant did you use on escape teeth? Suppliment power manually to compensate for MS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it runs fine dial up but doesn't dial down high probability the balance jewel on the dial side is dirty. You need to clean/oil that again.

Another issue you can check is if the hairspiring is out of flat. Look at the balance while installed on the movement.. it should be parallel with the balance spokes and the whole movement in general. If it is slightly tilted it will hit either the underside of the balance cock or the balance itself. This might only manifest itself in one position.

Good luck.

Anilv

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all

Thanks to all the constructive advices -

I removed the pallet fork (no lubrication in the top/botton jewel, but moebius 9415 for pallet stones on the way) and installed the balance and it has the same slow swing rate. I re-cleaned the diashock jewels in isopropylalcohol (any better cleaning alternative)?. Now it´s swinging freely and much better! + - max 10 sec per day when laying down but loosing 1.5 minute per when upside down according to my clock tuner app. I think the hairspring is few degrees out of level, see attached image.

Screenshot_20190913-095054.png

Edited by Khan
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you remove jewels to clean? Peg the jewels?  How do you know if all dirt is removed?  I guess not.

If you will, just drop some naphta on top of both shock springs, and fork pivots.

you are likely to witness excellent amplitude, whcih means jewels are not clean enough. If the cause of poor amplitude is not found right there, we move onto checking other possible causes, like impulse not in beat, HS rubbing etc.

Regards joe.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/13/2019 at 11:02 AM, Nucejoe said:

Did you remove jewels to clean? Peg the jewels?  How do you know if all dirt is removed?  I guess not.

If you will, just drop some naphta on top of both shock springs, and fork pivots.

you are likely to witness excellent amplitude, whcih means jewels are not clean enough. If the cause of poor amplitude is not found right there, we move onto checking other possible causes, like impulse not in beat, HS rubbing etc.

Regards joe.

 

 

Hi Joe

You were right. The issue was decades old stuck oil in balance top/bottom jewels, on which I had to use pegwood a couple of times. Even the caps were stuck and not easy to remove. Now it's running and keeping time well!

Edited by Khan
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:Bravo::Bravo:

2 hours ago, Khan said:

Hi Joe

You were right. The issue was decades old stuck oil in balance top/bottom jewels, on which I had to use pegwood a couple of times. Even the caps were stuck and not easy to remove. Now it's running and keeping time well!

Thanks for letting me know, A drop of naphta, deisel fuel, avgas etc on jewels, temporarily frees the pivots which may be stuck in dried oil.  I recommend making a habbit of its use to anytime we suspect a lubricant issue.

I also recommend finding and fixing as many faults as we can, prior to final clean, But I am self though so not all my techniques may agree with scholastic teachings. Regards

Edited by Nucejoe
Oh
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad you have it going. I had same problem cleaned the jewels without removal and did no difference. Had to remove them and clean properly, that worked. Just shows how sensitive the Balance is. I use alcohol too, well the 99% isapropyl, the other in Bottle is for de-stressing :sleep:

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Hold the crown when in winding position, move the click away from the crown wheel, and then while holding the crown let it slowly unwind. I recollect that you must remove the automatic device bridge first, but maybe I'm wrong. You can first try without removing the automatic device bridge.
    • nevenbekriev- You nailed it with your description of me and my reaction when the clock started ticking again. I am a newbie.  I love the sound and idea of mechanical clocks but the idea of owning one and trying to keep them running has never appealed to me. My wife bought this one and an antique German wall clock.  When I looked into having someone repair them for me, the universal response was "it's really expensive to work on them, you should just replace the movement". So, I had nothing to lose, I started researching them and opened them up. The wife is happy because she hears the sound of the clocks again. But I have gone down the "accuracy" rabbit hole. In the vertical position, the balance wheel was not floating. It was sitting on the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the lower spring collet and got it floating. It easily passed the 270 degree 3 to 5 minute oscillation test. It took 8 minutes for the wheel to completely stop moving.  I put it the unit back in the movement and checked the safety pin. It does not touch the safety roller anywhere in +/-270 degrees rotation from neutral position. But the amplitude of the rotation with the spring fully wound is weak based on what you are saying. It rotates +/-90 degrees from the neutral position.  No, I did not take the movement completely apart.  That seemed way outside my skill set at the time. There is a reason I became an electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I am much more comfortable with moving electrons than tiny moving metal parts. Will I do it in the long run? Anything can happen. I don't seem to be able to let it go.
    • Isn't that the same guy who told Zelenskyy to escalate the war with Russia/Putin when they already had a peace deal? 2 years later and we have half a million young Ukranian boys dead. He doesn't seem very clever...
    • Thanks guys.  quick question. For automatic movement, particularly this one. can I power down the main spring by pushing this rachet down?  i've gotten pretty used to SW210 and powering down a manual movement. But so far i've only been waiting for the auto movement to run out of juice before opening the case.     
×
×
  • Create New...