Question, HS in the family

[Nucejoe]

Question, Dr ranfft lists the entire family of each caliber. I wonder if the HS fitted on each member is of the same springness,width, thickness?    That is;  Providing the same beat and enough spring length, can the HS off of one be flown with the wheel of another member? 

Thanks in advance.          Joe

 

[watchweasol]

Hi Joe, good question one would assume so, bearing in mind that if the balance wheel and staff weight are the same within the same family. I guess the only way is to weigh the wheel and spring as a pair from random members of the same family. 

[AndyHull]

There is a good chance that would work. Of course there is only one way to find out, and that is to try it.

[rogart63]

If the movement is different Hz i think they can have different HS . Been there with a  AS 1746. They come in different HZ versions . Didn't work and at first i could figure out why.

[Nucejoe]

Thank you all for your comments. Allow me to invite,

   @oldhippy  @jdm  @nickelsilver  

Gentleman, Please furthure enrich this thread with your comments.

Best Regards 

 

[Nucejoe]

11 hours ago, rogart63 said:

If the movement is different Hz i think they can have different HS . Been there with a  AS 1746. They come in different HZ versions . Didn't work and at first i could figure out why.

Correct, my experience shows HS of different frquencies are not interchangable even if flown with the wheel,  by the time you reach the right beat, you are left with a funny looking HS due to too much cutting. 

[oldhippy]

If everything is identical and the whole thing mass produced. Then it should be fine with only a tiny adjustment needed.  

[nickelsilver]

In the past, like over 50 years ago, each spring was vibrated to its balance. Each balance, while superficially identical, could be different enough from the next one in the box to make the hairsprings incompatible. The modern method is more automatic, the springs are colleted then cut to a given length, the terminal curve formed, stud attached. They are then each tested and graded into about 20 categories; the balances are likewise graded into 20 categories. If you look at the results of the categorization, it makes a nice bell curve, with the majority falling within perhaps 4-5 middle spots, the rest dispersed in decreasing numbers towards the ends.

The balances and hairspring are just mated according to the category. If you try to mate a Cat 1 spring to a Cat 20 balance it won't work at all. If you try between Cat 9,10,11, it may work OK. Of course there's no way to know which one is which once it leaves the timing department of the factory.

 

Balances with screws add a dimension of adaptability as you can add and remove weight easily. Solid balances can only have weight removed, and the adjustment is permanent.

Edited September 4, 2019 by nickelsilver

[oldhippy]

32 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Balances with screws add a dimension of adaptability as you can add and remove weight easily. Solid balances can only have weight removed, and the adjustment is permanent.

Agree and you also have balance washers as well that can be added for weight, they have to be added evenly, if not the balance will be out of true. 

[vinn3]

  how do you remove weight accuratly from a "screwless balance"?   vin

[oldhippy]

I would use a watchmakers lathe. 

[nickelsilver]

9 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

  how do you remove weight accuratly from a "screwless balance"?   vin

With a very small drill on the underside of the rim. There are machines used in manufacturing that can very accurately determine the heavy spot and then very accurately remove material (the old machines used drill, the newer ones use a micro slitting saw). For the bench watchmaker how much to remove for poising is a matter of experience; the drill is usually held in a pinvice, and might be something like 0.20mm diameter.

Edited September 4, 2019 by nickelsilver

[Nucejoe]

Thank you Gentleman. 

So, BW and HS on some vintage and I gather all antique time pieces, were to be (in pair ) vibrated to the design beat . Two BW on same assembly line were dynamically different even though they weighted and looked the same.

If a HS for a rare collectible pieces is needed, I think one can be extracted from other( not so collectibles) members of the family and true would then need to be vibrated with the BW anew.

I have been finding hairsprings in the family, that can be( cut) vibrated compatible with the BW at hand.

I hope to have made my question more clear to understand, which is , other than the length, are HS within a family the same?

 

[nickelsilver]

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Thank you Gentleman. 

So, BW and HS on some vintage and I gather all antique time pieces, were to be (in pair ) vibrated to the design beat . Two BW on same assembly line were dynamically different even though they weighted and looked the same.

If a HS for a rare collectible pieces is needed, I think one can be extracted from other( not so collectibles) members of the family and true would then need to be vibrated with the BW anew.

I have been finding hairsprings in the family, that can be( cut) vibrated compatible with the BW at hand.

I hope to have made my question more clear to understand, which is , other than the length, are HS within a family the same?

 

If you mean the same CGS number (that is how they are classified), then yes, they should be the same.

[Nucejoe]

8 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

If you mean the same CGS number (that is how they are classified), then yes, they should be the same.

I guess the name of  this metric system is adapted in horology, CGS;  Centemeter, Gram, Seconds.  Use of this term would have saved me a lot of strugling just to expalin a simple question. 

Best Regards.       and thank you for the time you put in.

[Nucejoe]

On 9/4/2019 at 5:37 PM, vinn3 said:

  how do you remove weight accuratly from a "screwless balance"?   vin

I guess you would have to depend on machines/ tools to remove the right amount of weight. Most basic tool should let you check for poise , easily.

[HSL]

On 9/4/2019 at 1:18 PM, nickelsilver said:

In the past, like over 50 years ago, each spring was vibrated to its balance. Each balance, while superficially identical, could be different enough from the next one in the box to make the hairsprings incompatible. The modern method is more automatic, the springs are colleted then cut to a given length, the terminal curve formed, stud attached. They are then each tested and graded into about 20 categories; the balances are likewise graded into 20 categories. If you look at the results of the categorization, it makes a nice bell curve, with the majority falling within perhaps 4-5 middle spots, the rest dispersed in decreasing numbers towards the ends.

The balances and hairspring are just mated according to the category. If you try to mate a Cat 1 spring to a Cat 20 balance it won't work at all. If you try between Cat 9,10,11, it may work OK. Of course there's no way to know which one is which once it leaves the timing department of the factory.

 

Balances with screws add a dimension of adaptability as you can add and remove weight easily. Solid balances can only have weight removed, and the adjustment is permanent.

Vintage hairsprings is probably the largest headache since most of the old knowledge has been forgotten when the modern watchmaker begun to buy balance complete with already matched spings and balances. The balance on these are laser adjusted.
On the packages of the vintage springs there often are the markings Gr and Fce learning what they stand for would help people like me with less knowledge to choose the correct spring to vibrate faster. Was there any standardized system for this type of marking?

[Nucejoe]

@HSL  are these colleted?   I read some producers graded their products in like 4 or 6 classes by strength, like Gr4  stronger than Gr3.  One just chose the right class and had to collet, vibrate, curve the end, stud.

A bigger headache are uncolleted hairsprings, an extra unknown.

 

 

[HSL]

Those in the picture above is the hardcore ones no collar..
 

[Nucejoe]

On 9/4/2019 at 3:48 PM, nickelsilver said:

In the past, like over 50 years ago, each spring was vibrated to its balance. Each balance, while superficially identical, could be different enough from the next one in the box to make the hairsprings incompatible. The modern method is more automatic, the springs are colleted then cut to a given length, the terminal curve formed, stud attached. They are then each tested and graded into about 20 categories; the balances are likewise graded into 20 categories. If you look at the results of the categorization, it makes a nice bell curve, with the majority falling within perhaps 4-5 middle spots, the rest dispersed in decreasing numbers towards the ends.

The balances and hairspring are just mated according to the category. If you try to mate a Cat 1 spring to a Cat 20 balance it won't work at all. If you try between Cat 9,10,11, it may work OK. Of course there's no way to know which one is which once it leaves the timing department of the factory.

 

Balances with screws add a dimension of adaptability as you can add and remove weight easily. Solid balances can only have weight removed, and the adjustment is permanent.

Hi @nickelsilver  What is the name of the tool/instrument the colleted hairsprings are tested with?   I presume the coil strength is tested=measured to some degree of accuracy.

Happy Christmas .

[nickelsilver]

Nucejoe- I don't know a specific name other than vibrating tool. Back in the days watch companies might have gad their own proprietary tools, Greiner made industrial level vibrating tools too, but the bulk of sprung balances come out of Nivarox and they have their own stuff.

For the bench watchmaker the "Luthy" tool is the standard, using a master balance. A member here is making an electronic master balance to fit these tools at a very reasonable cost which I intend to try out as soon as I can get around to ordering one.

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Nucejoe- I don't know a specific name other than vibrating tool. Back in the days watch companies might have gad their own proprietary tools, Greiner made industrial level vibrating tools too, but the bulk of sprung balances come out of Nivarox and they have their own stuff.

For the bench watchmaker the "Luthy" tool is the standard, using a master balance. A member here is making an electronic master balance to fit these tools at a very reasonable cost which I intend to try out as soon as I can get around to ordering one.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.   Best wishes.  Joe