First projects, Timex good and bad.

[Sberry]

When I enrolled for Mark's courses I picked up a Seagull ST36 from ebay to follow along with. It's relatively nice and $40 a go, so I wanted to practice destroying something else first.

I ended up buying a batch of 7 grimy non-working vintage manual wind and automatic timex watches in various states. I figured they would be super-simple and at a couple of bucks a piece hard to beat it. I probably should have researched those movements first, what I saw once I removed the casebacks was this odd 2-plate movement. So far have encountered both the 21 and 24 variants https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Budget_Watch_Collecting/Timex_movements

Researching and playing with them (and totally exploding one) I got a little more familiarity. These feel relatively disposable and a full service would be more difficult than other watches because of the two-plate design. This bummed me out at first, concerned that I would waste time/money on watches that wouldn't move me forward in the best way.

Then I followed advice found here on the forums, soaked my first movement,with a slight wind on it, in Mineral Spirits then Naptha, blew it off. tick-tick-tick. Then I was able to get enough dexterity to remove the top balance screw / cup, and drop in some lube  Took a while, misaligned the bottom balance pivot, overoiled the wrong spot and had to soak it again, but it came out OK.

I spent a long time removing filth from the case, polishing the crystal, cleaning up the dial with rodico, placing the hands, like new!... then I started in on the other 6, started seeing differences in casing and movements, scrubbing and repairing old bands, and continuing to be amazed when these 50 year old watches fired back up after long periods of abuse and neglect. 

Anyways, I'm hooked and having a blast, meandering my way through course 2 on a dry-run and will get to that Chinese movement soon - hoping after the tiny Timex bits it will feel a little more roomy.

sberry

Austin, TX

First one down, 2nd movement ready to case.

[JerseyMo]

Excellent and welcome to the land of vintage Timex!  Looks like a early 1970's Mercury in the picutre.  Be sure to add some watch grease to tip of the stem.  That will help with the winding and setting. 

[Sberry]

Grease added - thanks for the advice. I'll add photos when I get a few more together.

[oldhippy]

Most Timex movements are not like the average watch movements. Many watch repairers will not repair them because of what they are.

See what I mean. I now which out of these two most would prefer to work on, this is a normal movement with no frills. 

  

[jdm]

14 hours ago, Sberry said:

Then I followed advice found here on the forums, soaked my first movement,with a slight wind on it, in Mineral Spirits then Naptha, blew it off. tick-tick-tick. Then I was able to get enough dexterity to remove the top balance screw / cup, and drop in some lube  Took a while, misaligned the bottom balance pivot, overoiled the wrong spot and had to soak it again, but it came out OK.

I spent a long time removing filth from the case, polishing the crystal, cleaning up the dial with rodico, placing the hands, like new!... then I started in on the other 6, started seeing differences in casing and movements, scrubbing and repairing old bands, and continuing to be amazed when these 50 year old watches fired back up after long periods of abuse and neglect.

Very good, you have demonstrated again how prejudice and snobism can be crumbled with application and positive thinking. Like any other object nice watches can come and go, but your skills will stay with you forever. 

[watchweasol]

Well done indeed as jdm says there is much snobbism in watches and timex and the russian watches take the brunt of it. You do your own thing and enjoy doing it and learning at the same time. After all a Rolex and aTimex just tell the time, a watch is a watch the only thing relative is the cost. 

[Sberry]

I've been drawn to the diversity of Soviet watches, Citizen, Seiko, Bulova partially for cost reasons, but also because they are as interesting to me in the way a 1970s Honda CVCC or a Volvo 244 or a Delorean is. I would love to, and will one day, have a nice Omega, or any other high end Swiss watch (or Ferrari or Porsche...), but then I could only afford one or two and would be terrified to service them myself. 

I think if you are picky there are amazing things to be had in the low-end price range.

[JerseyMo]

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Most Timex movements are not like the average watch movements. Many watch repairers will not repair them because of what they are.

  

 

 

Yes, I agree that vintage Timex are not typical.  Why professionals shy away from repairing them in my opinion is for two main reasons.

1) parts -   only option is to find NOS or a donor and even at that you won't find everything. 2) profit - repair cost will be more than the value of the watch.

BUT.... if you look on eBay you will find many sellers claiming "Professionally Serviced" on vintage Timex and selling them for 2 - 3 hundred dollars.  And to my shock they are actually selling.  This was all started by the re-issue of the 1965 Marlin model.

[JerseyMo]

7 hours ago, watchweasol said:

After all a Rolex and aTimex just tell the time, a watch is a watch the only thing relative is the cost. 

yes and even a broken Rolex has the time right twice a day.  But, it will cost you more to fix than a Timex!

[oldhippy]

When I was working as a watchmaker back in the 70' & 80's the company I worked for would send them away. Back to Dundee, Timex  on many occasions would send back a replacement watch for the same price as a repair. I would laugh and say to the staff even Timex can't be bothered to repair there own, that's how bad the movements are. Little did I know that in this day and age people would still be repairing and collecting the things. 

[AndyHull]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

When I was working as a watchmaker back in the 70' & 80's the company I worked for would send them away. Back to Dundee, Timex  on many occasions would send back a replacement watch for the same price as a repair. I would laugh and say to the staff even Timex can't be bothered to repair there own, that's how bad the movements are. Little did I know that in this day and age people would still be repairing and collecting the things. 

In a way Timex had it right. They were doing Swatch style "repair" long before Swatch was a thing.

Economically, if it took any significant time to repair, and the cost of replacement was less than the cost of employing some nimble fingered Dundee lass for that length of time to repair it, then bin it and give them a new one. 

The trouble is that repair depends on more than one factor.

Pure economics has a tendency to make most modern "things" beyond economical repair, even if that repair is relatively simple, but sentiment often trumps economics.

People collect and repair Trabants and Volkswagen beetles. People collect and repair Porches and Ferraris.

The Trabant is "bad", and the Ferrari "good", if you are only judging on monetary value, but the Trabant is arguably just as interesting as the Ferrari from an engineering or historical perspective, and arguably more reliable and cost effective (though both fail miserably on their pollution credentials) .

I happen to have more attachment to the history behind Dundee Timexes than for example Rolex or Omega, having worn Timexes in my youth,  having passed their factory many times and so forth. So despite their utilitarian engineering (or perhaps in some small way because of it), and despite the poor management decisions that led to the demise of the Dundee factory, I find them interesting.  

I am not typical of your average high end watch purchaser of course, since although I could afford a Rolex or an Omega, I would probably not get as much enjoyment out of it as I would from restoring a battered old piece of horological history, with some interesting engineering quirk or some unique construction technique.

[JerseyMo]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I would probably not get as much enjoyment out of it as I would from restoring a battered old piece of horological history, 

Just today I stopped by my firends watch shop to see what he had going on and he takes out this late 70's  Rolex that looked liked it had been dropped out of a moving car and landed in water.  Rusted, dinged up, dial trashed, hands all bent and the rotor rusted clean off the movement.  I look at it and say "Ok cleaned up and working its maybe 2K on a flip. BUt its gloing to take so much effort to de-rust and source parts. In that time you can make so many other profitable repairs.   He replies but this one is a challenge!  

and yes, he will repair a Timex too!  Although the last few he has given to me to repair for him

[JerseyMo]

19 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Most Timex movements are not like the average watch movements.

 

Ok, let see what you think of this - 

looks to be a second generation model 24 movement. 

So question is how did I determine that?  Come on Timexicans, put your thinking caps on.....

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by JerseyMo
typo

[AndyHull]

5 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

Ok, let see what you think of this - 

looks to be a second generation model 24 movement. 

So question is how did I determine that?  Come on Timexicans, put your thinking caps on.....

 

The shape and layout suggests a model 24 variant, and the arrangement of, and larger number of holes (the one above the mainspring barrel for example) in that plate suggests it is a later version. I actually have no idea how many versions there are, just that later ones have a top plate with more holes in it. Do I get a medal?

Edited August 29, 2019 by AndyHull

[JerseyMo]

10 hours ago, AndyHull said:

The shape and layout suggests a model 24 variant, and the arrangement of, and larger number of holes (the one above the mainspring barrel for example) in that plate suggests it is a later version. I actually have no idea how many versions there are, just that later ones have a top plate with more holes in it. Do I get a medal?

close,    one other detail.

[AndyHull]

Well it doesn't appear to have the flimsy click spring of the 104, and it isn't on brass plates, so it isn't a very early Timex, nor does it appear to be a very late one either, but as to exactly what makes it "second generation", I'm not sure.

[JerseyMo]

5 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Well it doesn't appear to have the flimsy click spring of the 104, and it isn't on brass plates, so it isn't a very early Timex, nor does it appear to be a very late one either, but as to exactly what makes it "second generation", I'm not sure.

no, the question is why a #24?   After all a #25 would look the same  or would it? That is from the way the phot is taken?

[Nucejoe]

Everytime I look at a timex movement, I wish I hadn,t.

[oldhippy]

54 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Everytime I look at a timex movement, I wish I hadn,t.

[AndyHull]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Everytime I look at a timex movement, I wish I hadn,t.

You need to be more gentle with that hammer, and you will get far better results, they only need a very light tap. 

All joking aside, they are actually, usually relatively easy to fix. I admit they 'aint the most elegant thing on the planet, but they are surprisingly robust, and parts and donor movements are cheap and readily available if something important has bitten the dust in them.

I admit if I was offered a choice between a free 1960s Timex Marlin and a free 1960s Omega Seamaster I would probably bite your arm of to get the Omega, but the Marlin would be the one on my wrist for anything other than formal occasions. 

[Nucejoe]

I used to call timex watches massey ferguson until I realized vice versa is closer to the truth.  and fear washing timex movements in diesel fuel for it may run cultivating..

Honestly andy do you enjoy looking at the two pieces OH posted picture of, the same.

I hate to put a screw driver in the slot of a single screw in the gorgeous one for the fear I may scratch the screw. I also hate to do the same with timex for the fear I may scratch the screwdriver.

 

[AndyHull]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Honestly andy do you enjoy looking at the two pieces OH posted picture of, the same.

Quote

Not the same, no, but they are both interesting, but for different reasons.
Aesthetically the jeweled movement is far superior, but the same could be said of a tiny Sekonda jeweled movement. The finer the finish, the more pleasing it is to the eye, however the Timex is interesting from a different perspective. It is the Trabat, to the jeweled movements Rolls Royce.

I hate to put a screw driver in the slot of a single screw in the gorgeous one for the fear I may scratch the screw. I also hate to do the same with timex for the fear I may scratch the screwdriver.

Quote

A lot of the Timexes I have picked up cost a lot less than my screwdrivers, or indeed were free with something more "interesting" but that doesn't mean they should be cast to the landfill simply because they are not expensive.

I don't buy watches as an investment, I buy them for the history, the engineering and the fun of it. 

If you were investing in watches however, rather tongue in cheek, it could be argued that picking up a Timex for a dollar and selling for fifty dollars is a far more productive investment percentage wise than picking up a Rolex and selling for little more than you paid for it. Multiplying your money by fifty is a better return than multiplying it by one. If you turned round 100 Timexes, you would get a Rolex for free

 

 

[JerseyMo]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I hate to put a screw driver in the slot of a single screw in the gorgeous one for the fear I may scratch the screw. 

screw driver performace not what it use to be?

[Nucejoe]

42 minutes ago, JerseyMo said:

screw driver performace not what it use to be?

      

[AndyHull]

On 8/29/2019 at 7:50 PM, JerseyMo said:

close,    one other detail.

Don't leave us in the dark, what have I missed.