Reforming a hairspring curve - Breguet Overcurve HS

[praezis]

Save your money, the tweezers in the hswalsh link is of little use. OH did a very good job finding this tool, but it is the smallest of the set, too small for gents- or pocketwatches. I suppose it is the remains of a long sold stock.

My old Bergeon catalog shows them, but they were no more available when the catalog was issued.

Frank

[nickelsilver]

Save your money, the tweezers in the hswalsh link is of little use. OH did a very good job finding this tool, but it is the smallest of the set, too small for gents- or pocketwatches. I suppose it is the remains of a long sold stock.
My old Bergeon catalog shows them, but they were no more available when the catalog was issued.
Frank

Yes, I don't think they've been made for some time and any offered as new were/are remains of old stock.

There was a time even in the 70s as mechanical watches were heading toward supposed extinction that women churned out piecework of vibrated springs matched to balances from home. They'd have a Greiner Spiromatic and some killer tweezers and do this stuff at a speed and precision that's unbelievable. I'm almost sure the lady I met at Parmigiani from the post above was one of these workers, pulled in from semiretirement.

There's no demand for such tools now and there's enough on the used market to satisfy the collectors and occasional users. My set has been updated numerous times in the last 20 years as I found better examples to replace the ones I had, selling off the lesser pieces. Being in Switzerland we're a bit spoiled as you stumble upon this stuff at random flea markets. I found a selection of screw slotting files a few months back, really fine ones they don't make anymore, for two bucks a piece, new old stock.

[nickelsilver]

OK, here are the bad boys. The curving ones I have go from 00 to 5, the lifting ones from 00 to 4. The example hairspring would be about right for a deck watch- very big, and the largest of both sets worked well. You can see in the 4th pic that the end of the lifting tweezers can be adjusted for the thickness of the spring (red circle) and how far it pushes (screw in blue circle). I just did a simple overcoil, there are many shapes, here the goal was to get the curve to follow one of the spirals more or less imagining in our imaginary watch that would be where the regulator lies.

[oldhippy]

You are very lucky to have all of those. I only had a few. Having the correct tools for particular work makes it easier, these days many specialist tools do not come cheap.      

[oldhippy]

Here is Steffen Pahlow's video for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlcb3czu5_s&feature=plcp

Here is a link for the Breguet Hairspring Tweezers, Dumont

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/breguet-hairspring-tweezers-dumont

[rduckwor]

O.H.  Thank you for your help.

RMD

[jdm]

On 8/18/2019 at 8:58 AM, nickelsilver said:

Those are for raising the overcoil, the curved ones for forming its curve. There are about 8 different sizes of each.

 

33 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Here is a link for the Breguet Hairspring Tweezers, Dumont
https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/breguet-hairspring-tweezers-dumont

Worth to remind once again that as Master nickelsilver nicely explained, the 00 size available from  Cousins UK, is the smallest of all were once available, and is good for the tiniest hairspring only.

[luiazazrambo]

On 8/18/2019 at 11:36 AM, praezis said:

Hi,

I cannot imagine how the above hairspring could be formed without curve tweezers. Did all who give good advice ever make a Breguet coil?

These tweezers were not available 30 years ago when I started, so I made my own curve tweezers from normal steel ones. A bit of work, but never regretted.

Frank

Hi Frank,

I see a market gap here, could you please explain how did you make your own tweezers so we could fill that gap?

Lui

[nickelsilver]

While these specialized tweezers do make things easier they are not essential. Gazeley and Fried (others I'm sure) show ways to raise an overvoil, and you can form the curves freehand with two tweezers and some practice. Honestly most overcoils I've made I've done without the special tweezers.

[praezis]

20 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

Hi Frank,

I see a market gap here, could you please explain how did you make your own tweezers so we could fill that gap?

Lui

Hi,

it was mainly filing and a bit grinding.
Origin was a steel tweezers of this type, which I had a lot of:

Some pictures of the curve tweezers:

Frank

 

[luiazazrambo]

On 8/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, nickelsilver said:

"I remember visiting Parmigiani back turn of the century and there was a lady doing a really small caliber overcoil, I think she took about 5 minutes to time it with an old school vibrating tool and like 30 seconds to raise and form the coil with the special tweezers.

It'd be a half day work with the same equipment for a competent hairspring guy who didn't do them all day like she did."

Could I have the lady's phone number please?

[nickelsilver]

Hahaha I didn't get her number. She'd be 80ish now.

[Watcher]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:39 PM, jdm said:

Worth to remind once again that as Master nickelsilver nicely explained, the 00 size available from  Cousins UK, is the smallest of all were once available, and is good for the tiniest hairspring only.

Today I received from Cousins UK the size 00 Dumont overcoil raising tweezers for the  'tiniest' hairsrings - see below. When the insert for adjustment of the hairspring thickness is fully closed there remains a gap that is larger than the thickness of a typical 11.5 lignes hairspring. The last photo shows this gap and the tip of the hairspring.

As supplied, because the hairspring is not held firmly enough in the gap, the tweezers twist the hairspring when the raising bend is made . Conclusion: for these hairsprings, and anything smaller, the end tip of the tweezers must be re-worked to close the residual gap. Swiss made but not Swiss quality.

[nickelsilver]

That's a shame, but looks like and easy fix with an Arkansas stone.

[Watcher]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:56 PM, nickelsilver said:

That's a shame, but looks like and easy fix with an Arkansas stone.

This 1200 grit diamond wheel produced a nice square end to the tubular section. But I then had to countersink the end of the tube by a small amount because the sliding inner part has a radius in the region arrowed. Finally I had to dome the end of the locking screw. As supplied it was flat and tightening the screw increased the gap as it pushed the inner slider outwards. I wonder if these tweezers are second sourced from India?

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Watcher
detail

[Watcher]

Whoops - the last photo should have been this one

 

[LittleWatchShop]

On 8/18/2019 at 2:58 PM, nickelsilver said:

Won't be in the shop till Tuesday probably, but will say I've done a bunch of overcoil springs from scratch and only rarely use these specialized tweezers. There are other ways to raise the coil and I usually form the curve with two #5s. The special tweezers are useful when doing several or more of the same, you can set the coil raising ones up to repeat well, and find the curving ones that suit the form you're doing. I remember visiting Parmigiani back turn of the century and there was a lady doing a really small caliber overcoil, I think she took about 5 minutes to time it with an old school vibrating tool and like 30 seconds to raise and form the coil with the special tweezers.

It'd be a half day work with the same equipment for a competent hairspring guy who didn't do them all day like she did.

@nickelsilver, do you still stand by this?  I read this whole thread and imagined my credit card melting in my wallet.  I do have two #5s however, and while I love tools...the problem I am currently facing (you know from that other thread on turning a staff) may be the only time I will have to make an overcoil and thus the only time I would use the tool(s).  If I bought that set of tools you have, I would force myself to do NOTHING BUT overcoil manufacture for the remainder of my life!

[nickelsilver]

9 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

@nickelsilver, do you still stand by this?  I read this whole thread and imagined my credit card melting in my wallet.  I do have two #5s however, and while I love tools...the problem I am currently facing (you know from that other thread on turning a staff) may be the only time I will have to make an overcoil and thus the only time I would use the tool(s).  If I bought that set of tools you have, I would force myself to do NOTHING BUT overcoil manufacture for the remainder of my life!

Definitely. I have a friend who regularly makes overcoils, he uses the simple method where he grabs it in strong tweezers and pushes into wood to make the overcoil bends, and shapes by hand (to a diagram). He's passed several pieces through COSC that he's done.

[praezis]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have a friend who regularly makes overcoils, he uses the simple method where he grabs it in strong tweezers and pushes into wood to make the overcoil bends

I found, too, this most simple method is the best.
I also have Watcher's tool, but was not happy with it. The spring is distorted considerably out of round and both knees will not be of identical angle as expected and must be corrected anyways.

But the curve bending tweezers I use very often and don't want to miss it 

Frank