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rduckwor

Reforming a hairspring curve - Breguet Overcurve HS

Question

I am correcting a deformed hairspring and need to set the curve for the regulator pins.  De Carle mentions using curve-forming tweezers, which I cannot yet find.  What are the alternate practices for forming this curved portion of the over curve?

Thanks,

 

RMD

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I don’t know that you will find tweezers labeled “curve forming” thought they may exist.  I’ve found in reshaping hairsprings, any comfortable fine tip tweezer will do.  The important point is BE GENTLE!!  They don’t call them “hair” springs for nothing.  

Mark has some excellent videos on you tube on this very practice.  On point I did not SEE in the videos is to be careful of the angle at which you grip the spring before massaging it.  The end result should be the curve you seek while the coil of the spring remains in-line, that is to say, in the same plane.   Like a galaxy needing one of its arms adjusted.

 

hope this helps.  Practice on a spring you don’t need.

good luck and let us see your end result when you have the time.

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The first picture is where I started, the second is the present state.  I need to form the regulator curve and then put it on the cock for final adjustment.  I'm just have difficulty in imagining how for for the curve without a bunch of "kinks" where I do the adjustments.

 

RMD

HS.jpg

HS_2.jpg

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Hello, rduckwor.

the first coil off the collet is a bit askew and appears in the picture to be touching the second coil.  I would address that before addressing the final coil, as it will change the position of the final coil.

Move the regulator arm to the farthest point in the FAST/ADVANCE position.  Then mount the spring only, off of the balance wheel, to the cock.   Place the spring outer coil in the regulator pins.  At rest, the outer coil should be between the pins, not touching either.   Ever-so-gently, move the regulator.  The final curve should be parallel to the arc of the movement of the regulator pins and remain centered between them.  You will install and remove the spring and balance many times as you go through this process.  The goal is to have the collet rest perfectly centered around the pivot jewel with the final curve remaining centered between the regulator pins the entire journey of its movement.  

I believe Mark has some excellent videos on you tube on how to do this.  NO, he is not paying me to say this.

 

you can do it!!!  Gentle, patient and breath...

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Addendum:  the hairspring should be in the same plane, EXCEPT if there is an over coil.  The last 1/3 or so of the final coil being out of the plane.  Sorry about the confusion.

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3 hours ago, oldhippy said:

This is the type of tweezers.

 Dumont® 00 Carbon Steel Polished Tweezers To Curve Breguet Hairsprings

You mean these? https://www.dumonttweezers.com/Tweezer/Tweezer/446

Seem to me they are too thick for HS manipulation. Normally type 5 is recommended. https://www.dumonttweezers.com/Tweezer/Tweezer/469

I would be curious if specific HS forming tweezers are made new. Never seen them available.

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44 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I think these are called 10/00 and there is another type 9/00 which is even more specialized.

T47194_Pic1_cmyk1.jpg

At about €150 and €300 respectively one wonders if there is an alternative. Personally I wouldn't even know how to use them. 

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I think these are called 10/00 and there is another type 9/00 which is even more specialized.
T47194_Pic1_cmyk1.jpg&key=75f0685c98cda779269077a80767ffb92b6b1c6701dc84d7f3e6dc9194cf7a77
At about €150 and €300 respectively one wonders if there is an alternative. Personally I wouldn't even know how to use them. 
Those are for raising the overcoil, the curved ones for forming its curve. There are about 8 different sizes of each.

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Hi,

I cannot imagine how the above hairspring could be formed without curve tweezers. Did all who give good advice ever make a Breguet coil?

These tweezers were not available 30 years ago when I started, so I made my own curve tweezers from normal steel ones. A bit of work, but never regretted.

Frank

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4 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Those are for raising the overcoil, the curved ones for forming its curve. There are about 8 different sizes of each.

Very interesting, do you have a link or catalog? Looks like Dumont has  no online presence, they haven't hasn't realized it's 2019!

I struggle manipulating flat HS, and I find No. 5 inadeguate. Kudos to skilled people that can do with them anyway.

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Very interesting, do you have a link or catalog? Looks like Dumont has  no online presence, they haven't hasn't realized it's 2019!
I struggle manipulating flat HS, and I find No. 5 inadeguate. Kudos to skilled people that can do with them anyway.
I don't have a link but I have a full set of both styles, I'll post some photos when I'm back in the workshop.

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7 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Try your supplier. 

Which supplier? With these prices only Walsh and Cousins carry them. the latter only list two types. If you know of more specific type, availability and prices, welcome to post and share here.

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O.K.  Thanks for all the responses.  And yes, O.H. I know I need to correct the HS at the collet, just wanted to see if I could build the over curve before I did the easier part.  Here's he current state.  I won't lie and tell you it was easy.  HS work is something I have to take in small bites.  Clearly there is still work to be done, but I am getting closer to where I need to be.  Thanks to all of you for your advice and counsel.

 

And I too find the costs of some of these specialty tools absurd.


RMD

HS_3.jpg

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2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

These are for scientific use, not hairspring.

Quote

You have posted that link already, to which I replied showing  a second type and commenting their eye watering prices. I'll wait for the pics by from Master nickelsilver which actually owns them.

Edited by jdm

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59 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

If you want the correct tools for the correct job, sometimes you have to pay. 

Did you paid Pounds 299 (or even 160) + VAT for a set of tweezers? I think that Frank did the right thing:

5 hours ago, praezis said:

These tweezers were not available 30 years ago when I started, so I made my own curve tweezers from normal steel ones. A bit of work, but never regretted.

 

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I was extremely lucky where I served my apprenticeship.  The workshop was fully equipped with all sorts of watchmakers and clock tools. Besides back in the 70’s & 80’s tools were not as expensive as they are today.

If you want to be able to reach being the best you have to make sacrifices.  

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1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

If you want to be able to reach being the best you have to make sacrifices.  

Oh I understand that, I did and I will spend my pretty penny on tools. Now, on the matter presently at hand can we be specific beyond generic statements?

Curved tips tweezers, GBP 160 + VAT ?

  • Yes, needed at any price
  • I'l do with regular types
  • I'll make my own

Readers welcome to express opinions!

HT101-10-00%20(3)_0.jpg

Edited by jdm

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I have contributed on this thread by helping the original poster about the hairspring and pointing out one of the problems from his first photo. Also mentioned by the original poster he said De Carle mentioned using curved forming tweezers, he says he cannot find. I posted a link to the type of tweezers he asked about.

Please respect all members contributions.  

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Won't be in the shop till Tuesday probably, but will say I've done a bunch of overcoil springs from scratch and only rarely use these specialized tweezers. There are other ways to raise the coil and I usually form the curve with two #5s. The special tweezers are useful when doing several or more of the same, you can set the coil raising ones up to repeat well, and find the curving ones that suit the form you're doing. I remember visiting Parmigiani back turn of the century and there was a lady doing a really small caliber overcoil, I think she took about 5 minutes to time it with an old school vibrating tool and like 30 seconds to raise and form the coil with the special tweezers.

It'd be a half day work with the same equipment for a competent hairspring guy who didn't do them all day like she did.

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Save your money, the tweezers in the hswalsh link is of little use. OH did a very good job finding this tool, but it is the smallest of the set, too small for gents- or pocketwatches. I suppose it is the remains of a long sold stock.

My old Bergeon catalog shows them, but they were no more available when the catalog was issued.

Frank

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