Jump to content

Going barrel end shake


Recommended Posts

Everything runs smoothly with the train wheel bridge in place but as soon as I tighten the barrel bridge and I test the operation by turning the centre wheel, when it comes to a stop the centre wheels turns back a little, I guess 15-20 degrees (regardless of which way I turn the centre wheel)
I’m guessing that this could be due to the bridge being too tight but I don’t know how to test the end shake on a going barrel. This is a very small movement and grabbing the barrel arbor with tweezers doesn’t work (side shake is good). But wouldn’t it just stop instead of going back on itself?

This is an old 1940s scrap movment. The main plate, barrel bridge, the going barrel all look fine under magnification and I don’t overly tighten the screws.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

To check the barrel endshake, push on one side of the arbor first, it should move as you push on the otherside next.

I pushed it from the bottom and there was no movement, then I pushed from the top (the threaded hole) and didn’t detect any movement. I don’t quite understand pushing on the opposite sides, that would show the side shake?
The barrel lid looks good.

20190807_222147 (Copy).jpg

20190807_222028 (Copy).jpg

20190807_221616 (Copy).jpg

20190807_222842 (Copy).jpg

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Have you tried fitting the barrel and bridge on their own and testing for shake and freedom  if there is no end shake it will need further investigation as to why.

No, I haven’t tried that, I’ll try it this evening and see what it’s like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's easiest to see the shake if you hold the arbor ends between the inside of some tweezers.

In the pic above the cap does look like it's a bit concave, which might be killing the endshake. If you find it has none, you can press down on the barrel perimeter, with the barrel assembled, like you were going to pop the cap off- but hold the edges so it just flexes up. This can bend it up slightly creating shake.

IMG_0018 (Large).JPG

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It's easiest to see the shake if you hold the arbor ends between the inside of some tweezers.

In the pic above the cap does look like it's a bit concave, which might be killing the endshake. If you find it has none, you can press down on the barrel perimeter, with the barrel assembled, like you were going to pop the cap off- but hold the edges so it just flexes up. This can bend it up slightly creating shake.

IMG_0018 (Large).JPG

 Perfect. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fitting the barrel and the bridge on their own proves that the problem is there. The barrel stops as soon as I stop pushing it. And it’s definitely the non existing end shake. It was a struggle testing it, I ended up with the ratchet wheel screw in the barrel arbor and trying to move it with tweezers. The barrel’s end shake is good but the barrel itself when the bridge is fitted does not move up or down.

The lid looks good I’d say, I would have thought it would be the barrel arbor shoulder that would cause the friction but I’m no expert, I don’t know. Looking at the bridge, it does look a little bent but I don’t know for sure, it could be the shape that makes it look bent. I am tempted to use peg wood and give the pivot hole a little push but I don’t know whether that’s the way to handle it and maybe I would introduce another problem.

20190808_224542 (Copy).jpg

20190808_232745 (Copy).jpg

20190808_230750 (Copy).jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the problem had existed before,  the previous watch destroyer ha ha had shimmed the bridge with pieces of like aluminum sheet which got washed away as you cleaned. 

Finding/ fixing  the fault comes first, but if to no avail, you may end up shimming the bridge. Is there any sign of gauging on mainplate?

I cut a piece of transparent film off of cigarette boxes are wrappings and test shimming.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Repairs like these are totally new to me. I wouldn’t know how to shim it. But having no end shake, I would have thought I need to make space, bending/filing etc.?
I’ll check the main plate and take a picture of it when I get home, currently I only have the one I posted in my second post in this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi   No bending or filing  as once done no recovery path, Get hold of a couple of watch dial washers and put them between the bridge and the front plate and screw the bridge down with the barrel in place, Put the screws  so as they go through the dial washers ,  Once done and screws tightened down recheck for freedom. Hopefully that should work with no butchering and can be altered easily.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the barrel has shake on its arbor, but the arbor is tight between the plate and bridge, should really not have an effect on the running but would make winding harder. The arbor turns when winding, the barrel turns around the arbor during running.

 

Yes, when the watch is assembled, fork and balance out putting a few clicks of wind on the barrel should set the train in motion and the escape wheel should reverse at least a bit and hopefully a turn or few turns. That's an indication the train is free and clean. In the OP it wasn't really clear what was reversing or why (center wheel?), but it's pretty clear there's an issue with the barrel.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shimming is placing a piece of like thin aluminum foil between mainplate and the bridge to increase the distance between the two. 

Yes turning back as the barrel unwinds fully, indicated the train is so friction free that kenetic energy of the runing train winds the MS back.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I understand! I’ll start with aluminium foil and progress to dial washers if need be.
When the barrel is between the plate and the bridge on their own it’s not hard or difficult to turn it but the fact that it stops turning immediately as soon as I stop giving it a push is an indication that it’s not right and it needs more freedom to run. It runs smoothly when all bridge screws are in just before they ‘bite’ but as soon as I tighten them it’s not as smooth as I think it should be.

*Nickelsilver – everything reverses. It’s usually the centre wheel I give a push when I test it and I used the centre wheel to describe the issue. The barrel reverses a notch (magnifier needed to see it) and the escape wheel spins backwards a lot as you’d expect when the centre wheel turns back 20 – give or take degrees.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beautiful! Well, not quite, but now the train runs smoothly. I could have made the shim thinner and work my way up until it’s perfect but this is a scrap movement, I use it to find problems and learn how to deal with them.

I shimmed it in two places just by the screws. The third screw (the furthest away) did not have any effect on the running of the train when screwed down tightly.

Thank you all for your help and input.

 

20190810_145708 (Copy).jpg

20190810_150632 (Copy).jpg

20190810_151358 (Copy).jpg

20190810_151836 (Copy).jpg

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PeterS said:

Beautiful! Well, not quite, but now the train runs smoothly. I could have made the shim thinner and work my way up until it’s perfect but this is a scrap movement, I use it to find problems and learn how to deal with them.

I shimmed it in two places just by the screws. The third screw (the furthest away) did not have any effect on the running of the train when screwed down tightly.

Thank you all for your help and input.

 

20190810_145708 (Copy).jpg

20190810_150632 (Copy).jpg

20190810_151358 (Copy).jpg

20190810_151836 (Copy).jpg

:geek::Bravo::thumbsu:  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • although not in this case.  It was the Lugano Convention and its deficiencies that allowed a Swiss court decision in the first place.  This isnt really a Brexit issue at all.  A decision that affects both the EU and the UK should never have been heard in Switzerland. I bet the authorised service centres in the UK are pretty pleased.  It's a massive shame, though; I believe watch owners should be able to choose to have their watch serviced by whoever they trust.
    • Hi guys I think that old hippy is correct, it opens the gates for china to manufacture aftermarket spare parts. considering that they already do work on behalf of the Swiss I guess this decision gives the a little more legitimacy to tool up and I am sure they will take advantage of the situation either with or without the blessing of the Swiss watch industry  Having read about the protectionist machinations of the Swiss in the history of Europe they were the only ones to get fat at everybody else’s expense. I think the outcome could have been guessed at but ,  fair play to Cousins UK for standing up to them.  Now the question,  will everybody boycott Swiss watches and Swatch, no way they will still fill their coffers.  Me I stick with the Japanese once renowned for cheap shitty watches who came good through industrial effort and don’t for get the Russians that most dismiss as low grade crap. Wouldn’t buy a swatch product ever how about you all.? a
    • Hold the crown when in winding position, move the click away from the crown wheel, and then while holding the crown let it slowly unwind. I recollect that you must remove the automatic device bridge first, but maybe I'm wrong. You can first try without removing the automatic device bridge.
    • nevenbekriev- You nailed it with your description of me and my reaction when the clock started ticking again. I am a newbie.  I love the sound and idea of mechanical clocks but the idea of owning one and trying to keep them running has never appealed to me. My wife bought this one and an antique German wall clock.  When I looked into having someone repair them for me, the universal response was "it's really expensive to work on them, you should just replace the movement". So, I had nothing to lose, I started researching them and opened them up. The wife is happy because she hears the sound of the clocks again. But I have gone down the "accuracy" rabbit hole. In the vertical position, the balance wheel was not floating. It was sitting on the bottom of the frame. I adjusted the lower spring collet and got it floating. It easily passed the 270 degree 3 to 5 minute oscillation test. It took 8 minutes for the wheel to completely stop moving.  I put it the unit back in the movement and checked the safety pin. It does not touch the safety roller anywhere in +/-270 degrees rotation from neutral position. But the amplitude of the rotation with the spring fully wound is weak based on what you are saying. It rotates +/-90 degrees from the neutral position.  No, I did not take the movement completely apart.  That seemed way outside my skill set at the time. There is a reason I became an electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I am much more comfortable with moving electrons than tiny moving metal parts. Will I do it in the long run? Anything can happen. I don't seem to be able to let it go.
×
×
  • Create New...