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VWatchie

What’s wrong with this ETA 2824-2 movement?

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Just got me a used HAMILTON Khaki Field watch housing an ETA 2824-2 for what I felt was a reasonable price on eBay ($304/€269/£242 including shipping). The plan is to wear it myself as I really like the silver dial and case.

Putting it on my timing machine I get nothing alarming except for in the 9 o’clock position where it looks like the movement is going crazy (two pictures in this position).

I’d really want to know what’s going on and what I can do about it?

y4mK967Tvde6a_0uBBJXU8HYjedpymjqMgSA4evc

y4mGSZpCA6CSdq_NwZDSSCIy7PdHNvt1DAiXBB9R

y4mTvAdhJQ89v7pbS4N9rrEocSjbLoNjWXLUCpoy

y4mf2zkwGnB315ax1nxItt46UVQX-3P_-HkxfOpm

y4mlFs3RSWL2V4TiLolu9z4qOnuxVWQo_MqSJEP-

y4m1qUqE58MurNhIBIjkpfLg1e-xi3NiXjkhn2_v

y4mpwp6CuK0qO5OpR4GXEGMy-us34axcT_0FSAOx

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7 hours ago, JohnHutchins said:

What does it sound like?

9E94AC15-B5F9-4488-B3C3-3730CA848D1E.MOV

Thanks for the audio demonstration!

I wish I had listened to it before I started taking it apart. I too often seem to lose amplitude after I've serviced my movements :unsure: (need to figure this out, I'm still a noob) so I may not be able to recreate the problem. Anyway, once I've finished the service I'll put in on the timing machine again and we'll see what happens.

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On 7/14/2019 at 8:40 AM, VWatchie said:

Thanks for the audio demonstration!

I wish I had listened to it before I started taking it apart. I too often seem to lose amplitude after I've serviced my movements :unsure: (need to figure this out, I'm still a noob) so I may not be able to recreate the problem. Anyway, once I've finished the service I'll put in on the timing machine again and we'll see what happens.

how did you get on with this?

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38 minutes ago, AP1875 said:

how did you get on with this?

Thanks for asking! I'm still waiting for an opportunity to reassemble it. Work, family, and a ton musts are my priorities for the time being, but I'll report back once I'm done!

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Just an update! Assembled the watch a couple of weeks ago but couldn't wind it properly manually. After quite a bit of head-scratching, I eventually realized the clutch and winding pinion are intermittently slipping against one another. I haven't had the time to look into it in detail but I suspect that the tension of the yoke spring is too weak, or that the teeth of the clutch and/or the winding pinion are frayed.

Anyway, I'll be back with an update on the re-banking problem as soon as the winding problem has been solved.

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On 9/4/2019 at 10:53 PM, VWatchie said:

Just an update! Assembled the watch a couple of weeks ago but couldn't wind it properly manually. After quite a bit of head-scratching, I eventually realized the clutch and winding pinion are intermittently slipping against one another. I haven't had the time to look into it in detail but I suspect that the tension of the yoke spring is too weak, or that the teeth of the clutch and/or the winding pinion are frayed.

Anyway, I'll be back with an update on the re-banking problem as soon as the winding problem has been solved.

I was going crazy with the same matter. I took everything apart twice. I could set the time and change the calendar but not wind it.

In the end it was just a very little tiny thing. 

The yoke "tail"was not attached to the spring. :)

Edited by Giumollo

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On 9/5/2019 at 9:15 AM, anilv said:

If you're taking the dial off, check the rate in all positions with just the bare movement, ie without dial, date stuff, auto mechanism.

Anilv

Thanks for your input @anilv! So, do you mean that this could affect the re-banking (or whatever it is that I'm seeing on the timing machine)?

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On 9/9/2019 at 5:58 AM, Giumollo said:

I was going crazy with the same matter. I took everything apart twice. I could set the time and change the calendar but not wind it.

In the end it was just a very little tiny thing. 

The yoke "tail"was not attached to the spring. :)

I could determine that it was the teeth of the clutch and the winding pinion that was frayed, so I'm now waiting for spares. They weren't so bad that I couldn't wind at all, but when enough tension (and not very much) was built up they would slip. This in turn, and this is actually a question, made the crown wheel slip against the ratchet wheel (or so I believe) making the mainspring unwind uncontrollably in a spit second. Anyway, I hope these winding problems will be gone when I've replaced the clutch and the winding pinion. Or what do you think?

BTW, the ETA 2824-2 is the only movement I've seen (haven't got a lot of experience) having this "yoke tail" instead of a yoke spring to put tension on the yoke. I can see that there's quite a risk to forget it in the assembly process, especially if it is the first time you service a 2824-2. Anyway, I studied Mark Lovick's assembly video for the ETA 2824-2 prior to putting it together and took careful note of it. I'm now doing my third ETA, calibre 2472. Overall, my impression of the 2824-2 and now 2472 is that they are rather unconventional, at least when it comes to the train of wheels and the keyless works.

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15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I could determine that it was the teeth of the clutch and the winding pinion that was frayed, so I'm now waiting for spares. They weren't so bad that I couldn't wind at all, but when enough tension (and not very much) was built up they would slip. This in turn, and this is actually a question, made the crown wheel slip against the ratchet wheel (or so I believe) making the mainspring unwind uncontrollably in a spit second. Anyway, I hope these winding problems will be gone when I've replaced the clutch and the winding pinion. Or what do you think?

BTW, the ETA 2824-2 is the only movement I've seen (haven't got a lot of experience) having this "yoke tail" instead of a yoke spring to put tension on the yoke. I can see that there's quite a risk to forget it in the assembly process, especially if it is the first time you service a 2824-2. Anyway, I studied Mark Lovick's assembly video for the ETA 2824-2 prior to putting it together and took careful note of it. I'm now doing my third ETA, calibre 2472. Overall, my impression of the 2824-2 and now 2472 is that they are rather unconventional, at least when it comes to the train of wheels and the keyless works.

I am only a beginner and have not serviced many different caliber but those, that I have, I did it for several times.

6497/8 and a seiko nh35a, this last one a broke a barrel tooth and still waiting for a replacement. 

For the 2824, I've been using chinese copies before I service a tissot with a 2824 that I own.

Here I already destroyed a Balance ( I don't think it was my fault. The quality of this movement is really miserable. Costs about 25,00€), lost a click spring e broke a escape wheel pivot in the watch cleaning machine. But now I can assemble and disassemble everything with my eyes closed.

Where I still have a lot of problems is with the Balance Jewels and oiling the escapement. 

My readings for rate and amplitude are always ridiculous. It starts with +75, then I clean the jewels and replace them. Then a have a -50, after that I oil the escapement and achieve +20. Then I disassemble the balance, clean it and do it all over again. After 5 hours I get some acceptable results. And this happens sadly everytime....

 

 

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I would make a habbit of checking the bare movement on timegrapher before adding anything on, specially the complications, furthure let run for a several hours to get a more even lubricant distribution specially on escape teeth. 

So far as the excess amplitude at 9 up position, check side shakes throughout the escape mech, that is escape wheel plus fork plus ballance staff arbors, also pallets for misalignment or having moved in fork slot.

You can slightly pull the yoke spring apart to increase pressure on winding pinion and clutch.

Good luck

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Checking the rate of the watch without all the other stuff is how you eliminate problems. If it runs fine in all positions with only the escapement running then you know the problem is elsewhere. It could be a simple case of a wrong screw on the date works which is slightly too long and touches the escapement...Maybe a worn datewheel creating additional friction....etc etc

Anilv

 

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Spares (clutch and winding pinion) delivered and some time on my hands I have finally finished the reassembly, given it a full wind, and put it on my timing machine. Here are the results recorded just a minute after its first full wind:

y4mHz66Yizw944PR1pCTR3bodFWmGdzOwQjz2Dgn


y4m8rMpyVsTzU8tmXIhhJnV1KtWcHt10WU1cRlZe


y4mDR3MXQIkxuons-qLvpMdh-RcQYwmYlYVR0cv8


y4mLhy6z3jfdckq4X8BFLfPdfpUAvrCAlQXIzv30


y4mO-RE-bER3L1MAZl1f7nKZizrPeW3sfgtOUReb


y4mtoZMX_y88GVOv0ppwC7liDiec1TcVw7fWBIHt

As you can see, there’s nothing funny to be seen in the 9 o’clock down position, or any other position. :woohoo-jumping-smiley-emoticon:

Of course, these are preliminary results. I’ll now let it run for a few days to let all fresh lubrication distribute and will then put on the timing machine again. I did assemble most of the watch parts except the oscillating weight, dial, hands, and case. I know it would have been a good idea to assemble it in steps (thanks for the advice!), but my fingers were itching. Anyway, if these preliminary results remain, I will be one very happy camper.

The most instructive part of this service was to learn that with a frayed clutch and a frayed winding pinion that are slipping against one another as tension builds in the mainspring while winding, it will eventually cause the crown wheel to slip against the ratchet wheel and the mainspring will unwind uncontrollably. In my case the mainspring unwound with such force and such speed (it can’t be seen, only heard) that it distorted the coils of the mainspring and made the arbor jump out of the inner coil. So yes of course, I had to replace the mainspring as well. So, lesson learned, a frayed clutch and a frayed winding pinion must be replaced, or the consequences can be devastating.

The rest of the parts are in perfect condition, which makes me wonder why the clutch and winding pinion were so badly worn. Perhaps the previous owner didn’t realize it was an automatic watch or was paranoid that it would stop unless constantly wound (keeping my fingers crossed there’s nothing wrong with the automatic winding). Or, could it be that the quality of metal in these parts is too soft/substandard? Please feel free to guess!?
 

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I'm trying to get my head around this....The clutch wheel and winding pinion only work to wind the crown wheel in one direction (hence clutch). If the mainspring can unwind itself the fault is with the click not locking. Most watches have the click acting on the ratchet wheel but the 2824 has it on the crown wheel. If this is working properly then it would be impossible for the barrel to unwind.

A worn clutch wheel and winding pinion will affect the hand-winding efficiency but once wound they don't move again.

Anilv

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On 9/12/2019 at 6:20 AM, Giumollo said:

I am only a beginner and have not serviced many different caliber but those, that I have, I did it for several times.

6497/8 and a seiko nh35a, this last one a broke a barrel tooth and still waiting for a replacement. 

For the 2824, I've been using chinese copies before I service a tissot with a 2824 that I own.

Here I already destroyed a Balance ( I don't think it was my fault. The quality of this movement is really miserable. Costs about 25,00€), lost a click spring e broke a escape wheel pivot in the watch cleaning machine. But now I can assemble and disassemble everything with my eyes closed.

Where I still have a lot of problems is with the Balance Jewels and oiling the escapement. 

My readings for rate and amplitude are always ridiculous. It starts with +75, then I clean the jewels and replace them. Then a have a -50, after that I oil the escapement and achieve +20. Then I disassemble the balance, clean it and do it all over again. After 5 hours I get some acceptable results. And this happens sadly everytime....

 

 

There has been instances, the fault runs away as I was trying to find it, the watch gets fixed and I have no idea how that happened, I wear the watch just to make sure the fault dosn,t come back. 

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On 9/26/2019 at 4:16 AM, anilv said:

I'm trying to get my head around this....The clutch wheel and winding pinion only work to wind the crown wheel in one direction (hence clutch). If the mainspring can unwind itself the fault is with the click not locking. Most watches have the click acting on the ratchet wheel but the 2824 has it on the crown wheel. If this is working properly then it would be impossible for the barrel to unwind.

A worn clutch wheel and winding pinion will affect the hand-winding efficiency but once wound they don't move again.

Anilv

Thanks for the input Anilv and I can understand your skepticism. My description of what caused the mainspring to unwind was in fact just a theory, not a proven fact.  I should have been more humble. Anyway, I sure would want to know exactly why the mainspring would unwind while winding the stem.

A good starting point for finding the truth about anything is start with what is actually known and then try to apply a plausible theory to it. So, what were the facts before I replaced the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. Well, some of the cogs of both the clutch wheel and the winding pinion were frayed. However, not to the extent that they wouldn't work at all. The rest of the involved parts, stem, crown wheel, click, ratchet wheel, and barrel

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On 9/26/2019 at 4:16 AM, anilv said:

I'm trying to get my head around this....The clutch wheel and winding pinion only work to wind the crown wheel in one direction (hence clutch). If the mainspring can unwind itself the fault is with the click not locking. Most watches have the click acting on the ratchet wheel but the 2824 has it on the crown wheel. If this is working properly then it would be impossible for the barrel to unwind.

A worn clutch wheel and winding pinion will affect the hand-winding efficiency but once wound they don't move again.

Anilv

Thanks for the input Anilv and I can understand your skepticism. My description of what caused the mainspring to unwind uncontrollably was in fact just a theory, not a proven fact.  I should have been more humble. Anyway, I sure would want to know exactly why the mainspring would unwind during manual winding.

A good starting point for finding the truth about anything is to start with what is factually known and then try to apply a plausible theory to it. I'm thinking that if we put our heads together, maybe we can solve this "mystery".

So, what were the facts before I replaced the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. Well, some of the cogs of both the clutch wheel and the winding pinion were frayed. However, not to the extent that they wouldn't work at all. The rest of the involved parts; stem, crown wheel, click, click spring, ratchet wheel, barrel, barrel arbor, and mainspring were, as far as I can tell, in perfect condition.

So, while winding the movement by turning the stem, I could distinctly feel and see how the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion now and then would slip against one another. However, as expected, this did not affect the winding of the mainspring. The tension of the mainspring would gradually build (albeit not as quickly as it could have). However, as tension was building strong, and at the exact moment that the cogs were slipping, I would hear something that I can only describe as a blow of a miniature hammer that would last for less than a hundred of a second. Continuing winding after this "hammer blow" it was evident that the mainspring had lost all its power, and after having repeated this winding procedure three to five times or so, the ratchet wheel screw would come loose as well.

Initially, I suspected the mainspring, as my impression was that the mainspring arbor hook wasn't sitting properly in the eye of the inner coil. That is, my theory was that the arbor hook was slipping out of the eye once enough tension in the mainspring had built. Then, as I kept winding, the arbor would spin 360 degrees and hook into the eye again, tension would build, and the hook would slip out again, and so on. So I decided to order a barrel complete from Cousins to see what difference it would make, if any, but it didn't make any difference at all. The exact same behaviour would repeat itself with the new barrel and mainspring.

I carefully examined all parts involved in the winding process, including the click works, but couldn't find any faulty parts except the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. So, I decided to order new parts in a desperate attempt to find a solution, and once the new clutch wheel and the new winding pinion were assembled all problems ceased!

So, those were all the facts to the best of my ability and recollection!

Now, here's my theory, and mind you, now I'm just guessing! To verify my theory I believe a high-speed macro camera would have been necessary. As the tension was peaking between the winding pinion and the crown wheel the click would have been disengaged. At this very moment the slip between the clutch wheel and the winding pinion would occur and the crown wheel would roll back into the position it came from and the click would slide back to support the crown wheel in this position. This would of course happen in an extremely small fraction of a second. Anyway, I believe that during this extremely short period of time before the click was fully engaged with the crown wheel after the slip, the ratchet wheel would exert such a strong force on the crown wheel that the crown wheel would slide in the direction of the click and in the process become weakened in its ability to keep the ratchet wheel from slipping on the crown wheel. Hence the mainsping would unwind uncontrollably.

Well, as already stated, this is just my theory (I hope it was possible to understand!?), but I'd like to hear what you think of it, and if you have an alternate explanation. That is, why would the mainspring unwind uncontrollably during manual winding?

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I understand your scenario but then the main issue would be the click releasing and not locking fast enough. This would happen even if the clutch wheel and winding pinion were in good condition.

The sharp noise could also be the mainspring slipping,  I assumed you greased the barrel wall with suitable oil?

Another test you could do is remove the clutch wheel ,stem etc and wind the ratchet wheel with a screwdriver and see if the same thing happens.. be careful as potential for the screwdriver to slip is very high!

Goodluck

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On 10/1/2019 at 6:02 AM, anilv said:

I understand your scenario but then the main issue would be the click releasing and not locking fast enough. This would happen even if the clutch wheel and winding pinion were in good condition.

The sharp noise could also be the mainspring slipping,  I assumed you greased the barrel wall with suitable oil?

Another test you could do is remove the clutch wheel ,stem etc and wind the ratchet wheel with a screwdriver and see if the same thing happens.. be careful as potential for the screwdriver to slip is very high!

Goodluck

Thanks for the input @anilv, much appreciated! BTW, I happened to mention you in my latest video. Hope that was OK!

It’s no longer a practical problem, but out of sheer curiosity I’ve given this a lot of thought and I’m still leaning towards my own of idea, although I’m still humble. I can’t see that there’s anything wrong with the click works or any other parts of the keyless works. To support my theory, as well, is the fact that after having replaced the worn-out winding pinion and clutch wheel, manual winding works perfectly. Not only is it more efficient (of course), but the mainspring has never unwound uncontrollably after the replacement of the winding pinion and the clutch wheel.

So, for anyone interested here’s my “final take” on this, although I am of course still very interested in alternative ideas as my goal is to understand what’s truly happening! While reading; assume that the cogs on the winding pinion and the clutch wheel are worn-out and slipping against one another once enough tension has built in the mainspring by manual winding.

So, as tension is peaking between the winding pinion and the crown wheel the click piece will be disengaged and the tip of the click piece and a tip of a crown wheel tooth will be opposite one another. At this very moment a slip between the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion occurs and the crown wheel, unnaturally, with a snap and tremendous speed, rolls back in a clockwise direction into the position it came from. As well, at this point the ratchet wheel exerts a lot of pressure on the crown wheel pushing it in the direction of the click. I believe that the combination of this event and force makes the crown wheel slide ever so little in the direction of the click, and in the process the crown wheel becomes weakened in its ability to keep the ratchet wheel teeth from slipping on the crown wheel teeth, and once this process has started it’s a point of no return. The ratchet wheel begins to spin in an anticlockwise direction with such an extreme speed and force that the crown wheel is unable to engage it again, even after the click has engaged the crown wheel. Hence the mainspring unwinds uncontrollably.

One objection to the above reasoning could be that this should also happen when we manually wind the watch through the winding crown and stem and quickly release our fingers from the winding crown. However, the speed with which we’re able to release the winding crown with our fingers could never match that of the cogs of the winding pinion and clutch wheel slipping against one other. That is, no matter how fast we release the fingers from the winding crown, the force from our fingers will make the crown wheel teeth roll back into the click in a controlled manner keeping the ratchet wheel teeth engaged with the crown wheel teeth.

Well, JM2C! :mellow:

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