Mainspring winders

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Colditz said:

Well still no joy with Cousins on obtaining a barrel complete for a 7s26c Seiko. They now show availability 29th May.

At GBP 16.90 + shipping i would not rush to buy. A brand new mvt can be bought for USD 36 or little more for an NH36 which winds and hacks. You can get a good one from a busted mov.t, PM if you want. 

[Colditz]

Hey JDM

Good idea sir. Is the NH36 same size as 7s26C movement? At least it would do as a temp till I can get a barrel complete for the Seiko.

Oh no a Frankenwatch is to be born.

 

[TexasDon]

The NH36 is the same basic movement as the 7S26, but with more jewels, hacking and winding. If you wish to keep the watch more functionally correct in respect to the the 7S26, why not buy a 7S36 movement? Exactly the same as the 7S26 but with two additional jewels. No hacking or winding either.

Seiko 7S26C_36C.pdf

[LiamB]

I just purchased a new set of Bergeron mainspring winders (#5355) which is a seven winder set with both left and right handles. I was a originally abit worried about spending a large sum on some basic kit ($800CAD) however it has really been worth it! Previously I used two vintage watch craft winder sets which caused plenty of headaches and damaged many springs which prompted me to upgrade. Although I have only wound a few springs with my new set it is quite an experience. The arbours are tapered so the spring slides smoothly off and on and after winding comes easily off the barrel without the spring flying across the room. Honestly worth every penny.  

I have included a few pictures of my old sets and the new beauty as well. My only complaint is that the selection of winder sizes isn’t the best and I will have to purchase a few in larger diameters to fill the gap between the set and my watchcraft pocket watch winders (green box).

[Marshall]

Of all the tools needed for watchmaking the mainspring winder seems to be the biggest hurdle. 

I've been poking around for a used Bergeon set (since apparently no other companies make these currently, not even from China?) but I don't fully understand what I actually need as far as sizes go. I see some are labeled as being for ETA movements, some are Rolex specific, but then there are just a bunch that seem labeled with sizes of some sort.

I could buy the handle, and the winder for the movements I'm working on now, and then just add to that as I go along. Or I could wait longer and spend more on a set of them. 

I realize that getting the set is cheaper if you are buying all of them anyway, but is that what would end up happening? Do I need every one of those sizes and types of attachments? Or can I piecemeal these out over time and end up with just the ones I actually need? 

[watchweasol]

Hi Marshall    An interesting scenario  I personally do it by hand with watches and use a home made device for clocks. Never had a problem hand winding as long as your hands are clean. With the watches as  you have found out there seems to be specifics for particular brands but I have seen some generic ones on the bay in the UK.  I think its a question of choice, how often you have the need and what is the most common one you use. its a matter of preference and associated cost.

[oldhippy]

I could never get on with watch mainspring winders. So I stopped using them. I used my hands and fingers with the help of tissue paper.

[Marshall]

Interesting, maybe I'll try that then. I guess I kind of assumed they were necessary to do it correctly but perhaps I overestimated it. 

Thanks for the advice either way

[PeterS]

I bought the Bergeon set of 17 mainspring winders and used it for the first time on the Unitas 6497 (clone) following Mark’s tutorial.
He used No. 11. I really struggled to get the spring on the arbor. I had to put the spring on the mat, I had to use tweezers and literally force the arbor on the spring, it was a fight (he struggled too and it was off the camera so I can’t actually see how he put it on). I know that many often use arbors one size smaller than the winder but I had exactly the same movement as Mark and he used the No. 11. If I didn’t see his video I would have used No. 10 arbor and No. 11 winder. The No. 10 was a tight fit but it went on without a fight but I went with No. 11 as per Mark’s video.
What surprised me is that when I looked at No. 12, the diameter of the arbor was same as the diameter of No. 11, No. 12 arbor fits perfectly into No. 11 winder. I would have expected No. 11 arbor to be of a diameter somewhere between No. 12 and No. 10. I compared couple of others and they were the same case, No. 10 arbor same diameter as No. 9

[jdm]

That much for Swiss perfection etc. 

Seuggest that you take good pictures with the measuring instrument and complain to seller and Bergeon at the same time. 

[PeterS]

Just now, jdm said:

That much for Swiss perfection etc. 

Seuggest that you take good pictures with the measuring instrument and complain to seller and Bergeon at the same time. 

Do you have the set? It seems to be in pairs the arbors and I don't know anything about it. It would seem logical for the arbors to have different diameters but I don't know what they should be.

[jdm]

I don't have the set but two identical arbors make no sense to me. 

Just measure them all and post, there should be a meaningful progression in their sizes. 

[PeterS]

I’ll have to borrow or buy a Vernier gauge to measure them properly.
Visually, there is no difference between No. 12 and No. 11. There is an obvious visual difference between No. 11 and No. 10 (again, no visual difference between No. 10 and No. 9). The fact that No. 12 fits into No. 11 winder is a little strange.
Maybe that’s the way they are but it doesn’t seem to make sense.
Perhaps someone who has the set could enlighten me whether the set I have is no good or whether that’s how they come.

[jdm]

5 minutes ago, PeterS said:

I’ll have to borrow or buy a Vernier gauge to measure them properly.

One really can't do watch work without vernier calipers, and is some case a micrometer.

[PeterS]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

One really can't do watch work without vernier calipers, and is some case a micrometer.

I don't need them at this moment, I'm still learning to walk. But I will need to get some now.

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, PeterS said:

I don't need them at this moment, I'm still learning to walk. But I will need to get some now.

Up to you of course, on my reasonable order of priority watch repair tools a  $15 digital calipers come much before than multi-hundreds winder set.

[sean1996]

You really do not even need to spend $15. I found this one through Esslinger at $5.95! 5 inches in length.

 https://www.esslinger.com/jewelry-and-watch-micrometer-columbus-style-vernier-caliper-gauge-125mm-5/

[PeterS]

I'm trying to concentrate on tools that I need to use to disassemble and assemble a watch movement for now. I know calipers are not expensive but it’s not needed it for it.
I’m trying to work out whether the set of mainspring winders is what it should be or whether there is a problem.

[PeterS]

I had a good look at it when I got home and they come in pairs: 00/0, 1/2, 3/4… 13/14/15 the arbor diameter is the same but 15 has larger ‘cover disk’ than 13 and 14.
From what I can see without measuring it, the arbor diameters and the disk diameters are the same. If you were buying it separately and you need, say 7 and 8 winders (they are different diameters), you can take your pick and buy 7 or 8 arbor/crank for the two winders.

I think this is how it’s intended to be. I don’t know why and I don’t know how Mark managed to get the spring on the size 11 arbor, but it is a clone and he probably disassembled and assembled the going barrel several times and that possibly stretched it a bit.

The pics below, the arbors are from left to right 3, 4, 5, 6, the others are 11 and 12 and I swapped the arbors, you will see the numbers on the winders and the arbors, see how it overhangs on the no 11 winder even when swapped. Also a picture of No 10 arbor in no 11 winder.
I thought the newer 17 set might have been different but see the screenshot from Mark’s YouTube video (light wood colour box) and you should be able to see how they overhang as well. Of course I can’t see the sizes of the arbors but I doubt it will be different.

[Watchtime]

maybe the clone mvt arbor has a slightly different size?

[matabog]

 

[Rexxus]

Lots of questions about these, no dedicated place for conversation and answers so I’ve created this thread!

 

I am learning to repair and service pocket watches and have been looking for mainspring winders. From the comments in several threads it seems;

 

- they are expensive

- a lot of hobbyists wind them by hand

- professionals will say never do it

- there are not a lot of posts about the different between a pocket watch and wrist watch winder

- there are some posts with brands and sizes for pocket watches

- no info I could find about what to look for and what to watch out for when buying one

 

I’d like to buy one so I can avoid destroying the mainspring by winding and touching it. I’ve found several online selling for between 15-$70 dollars like this one. Good idea? K&D Robbins type

 

 

 

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[nickelsilver]

The antique winders seem to never really work well. The modern ones work a bit better. I'm a professional and wind 90% in by hand, and defy anyone to look at two springs, one wound in by me by hand and one by winder, out of barrel, and tell which is which. Winding in by hand does take skill though. In some cases a winder is really the only good way to do it.

[Rexxus]

@nickelsilver

That’s awesome! Thank you for the insight. Do you have any YouTube videos about the technique to wind by hand?


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[ITProDad]

Hello Rexxus.

i too started on pocket watches and started winding by hand.  i understand most professionals, of which I am NOT one, consider it bad practice.  However, what works, works!

i stopped doing it by hand simply because it hurt my fingers to do so and I had been slapped in the face 137 times too often by particularly cheeky springs.  I bought the model in you picture years ago and love it.  There are two main drawbacks IMHO.  1. As nickelsilver suggests, the older ones tend to be work, particularly in the material that grips the spring in the center.  Thus it can slip quite often.  2. This model nay has one arbor size.  That means if you work on smaller movements with smaller springs, you may bend the center out of shape or even break it.  In the case of wrist watches and smaller sprinted movements, it won’t fit at all.

 

you can buy new winders one arbor at a time and build your set to your needs.  They are a bit more expensive per arbor than a set, but if you don’t need a complete set, you save money and get the right tool.  I must admit to coveting Marks Bergeon set in his videos even though I will NEVER need all those sizes.

 

best of luck and do reach out with pocket watch questions and suggestions.  I love to compare experiences.