Troubles with my first 2824 movement build

[DPipe12]

Hi Everyone, 

i am looking for some advice and coaching. I just recently took up watch building as a hobby and I thought I was doing ok. Got through my first one and didn’t do too bad. Though that one was a Miyota 8215. So then I thought I would try a 2824(clone) because it had larger diameter hands and that is what I had the most trouble on my first one. And it actually was a little easier on the 2824. But it seems I am 0 for 4 in getting it in the case because of not being able to get the stem back in properly. I’ve failed on 3 cheap clones and one ST 2130. But still no joy. I did try to repair one of them per the video by Mark, but that wasn’t successful either, though I thought it seemed like it. I had gotten replacement stems for 2824 from CasKer and it looked the same but I think it may be part of the problem. When I had one apart as seen on the video I tried to fit it through the pinion and it doesn’t go through. So I thought that could be the problem. But I tried the shipped one of the ST 2130 when I was getting it ready to go I’m the case and that failed too. What am I doing wrong. Should I punt on my new hobby or does anyone have a suggestion. I’m down about $140 on movements so far.  

Respectfully Frustrated,

 

DPipe12

 

[HSL]

If I understand your problem correctly you have problems to get the stem in correctly when the movement is in the watch case?
The obvious reason for not getting the stem in should be the tube on the case and the hole in the movement is missaligned.

Obviuos reasons for this can be;
1: The case it self has wrong dimensions
2: The dial has wrong thickness
3:The dial is slightly to wide and will not go all the way down in the case.
4: You forgot to put the dial ring between the dial and movement in place.

There probably are lots of other factors but guess these are the most common, if you try to put in he stem when movement is slightly out of aligement you will snapp the stem while winding.
If you have assembled the movement wrong there are a couple of tutorials in this section describing the process, sometimes it is easier to look at some static pictures instead of a video to get a gripp of the process.

For more help and guidance you should post in the section below  "Watch Repairs Help & Advice"  it makes it more easy to find if anyone else looks for a solution to a similar problem.

PS. If you want to practice on a genuine 2824-2 I can sponsor you with one, just give me a personal message in that case.

[DPipe12]

Thanks, but the problem is more that I can’t even get the stem in properly to the movement after I have removed it in preparation to put in the case. So it won’t go into the movement either when it is inserted through the case or even if I try to reinsert into the movement outside of the case. I was careful when I removed the stem and have actually tried removing from both winding position but mostly in the hand set position. But when I reinsert it is not working as it should. I read descriptions of which way is best but I think the consensus was mostly the hand winding. My last attempt on the ST 2130 I was tried in the winding position but that failed also. I can get it back in but it doesn’t function properly. It seems to be stuck in date position and won’t really go to other positions. So I can’t set time or wind. It will turn the day for a few times but then it stops doing that too. I. Any get to where I might need to trim the size of the stem. 

Thanks for the response ,

DPipe12 (David)

my goal is to make a very good replica of a Omega Seamaster  I have all the parts needed for that but I am learning with the clone versions   I want to eventually put in a real eta 2824 or 2824-2 to this replica. I sourced the parts and actuall thought they could be authentic but I sent back to Omega Swatch  for  repair but they would not because it was not genuine Omega parts ! I wasn’t too surprised at that but it is a very good fake  for now I am using case I purchased from Alpha Europe described to be for 2824 along with the clone movements I have mentioned  

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

How about taking out the slide pinion, I sometimes file the stem to make fit.

[HSL]

The winding stem most of the times just poppes in if you gently push in the setting lever nobb and slowly turn the stem around.
But if it doesn't you might have the keyless work missaligned.
I could take a coupe of pics showing how to assemble it correct and get the stem in if you want, on a ETA 2824-2 which would be like your clone?

[vinn3]

11 hours ago, DPipe12 said:

Hi Everyone, 

i am looking for some advice and coaching. I just recently took up watch building as a hobby and I thought I was doing ok. Got through my first one and didn’t do too bad. Though that one was a Miyota 8215. So then I thought I would try a 2824(clone) because it had larger diameter hands and that is what I had the most trouble on my first one. And it actually was a little easier on the 2824. But it seems I am 0 for 4 in getting it in the case because of not being able to get the stem back in properly. I’ve failed on 3 cheap clones and one ST 2130. But still no joy. I did try to repair one of them per the video by Mark, but that wasn’t successful either, though I thought it seemed like it. I had gotten replacement stems for 2824 from CasKer and it looked the same but I think it may be part of the problem. When I had one apart as seen on the video I tried to fit it through the pinion and it doesn’t go through. So I thought that could be the problem. But I tried the shipped one of the ST 2130 when I was getting it ready to go I’m the case and that failed too. What am I doing wrong. Should I punt on my new hobby or does anyone have a suggestion. I’m down about $140 on movements so far.  

Respectfully Frustrated,

 

DPipe12

 

     "just get back on the horse".   good luck.      vin

[jdm]

13 hours ago, DPipe12 said:

 I had gotten replacement stems for 2824 from CasKer and it looked the same but I think it may be part of the problem.

If you trying to fit 2824 stems on a 2824-2 clone is no surprise that they won't work, as they are different.

[watchweasol]

Hi Dpipe     Do not quit, there has to be a reason why. I would go back to basics, did the clone have a stem when it was shipped and did that fit?  . you have already reached first base having dismantled it and got it back together again. So well done for that. If the stem will not go in check out the list as proposed by HSL  as it contains the possibles ,also for your own interest remove the keyless work and try to fit the crown wheel on the stem in the raw it that's ok then try the castle wheel. If they both fit on the stem then there is another reason. Then without the crown or castle wheels in try the stem in the movement and also try it in the case through the pipe now,  if all the component parts fit each other correctly it is probably a case of miss-alignment and check through  the keyless work for parts being fitted wrong. I have enclosed the technical sheet for the ETA2834-2 which is similar in construction which may be of some help diagnosing the fault.        Nil Illegitimo Desperandum      I f you want the exact tech sheet for the 2824-2 let me know and I will get it.   The file is in pdf so no prob's printing it or reading it.   cheers for now

ETA 2834-2 - Technical Communication.PDF

[DPipe12]

Thanks All. 

 

Please forgive my Nubie status  I am obviously still learning. It may be that I am using the wrong stem and attempting to put that in first and therefore knocking things out of alignment. I actually did do what had been suggested by  @watchweasol  and implied by @jdm.  I had gone by Mark's video to get to those parts through the Non-dial side of the watch instead of from the dial-side keyless work. It didn't fit through the sliding pinion or the winding pinion where the broken one did. So how do I know if my clones are 2824 or 2824-2? And where could I get the proper stem. The one I got from Cas-Ker was a 401-1029, which apparently is the wrong one. I have ordered some from Ebay from China, but I am not sure if they are the right ones or when they will  get here in the States. I was thinking about filing down one of the replacements I bought but haven't yet done so. 

 

I am not sure of technique to disassemble and reassemble the keyless works. So any hints there?

Also, now that it appears to be broken in all of the movements I tried what is my easiest way to fix it.  I haven't tried to get to it from the dial side because the dial is already on and I was hoping not to have to remove that. 

I was going to  attach a photo of the stems and pinion's but maybe I will later. Right now I seem to be having and issue with Icloud and can't get to it. 

And thanks for that tech sheet it was helpful even though it was not the 2824 or 2824-2. Though I am still figuring out how to read it. I have not taken on the full disassemble and don't totally know how to follow the reassemble pictures it shows. 

And does anyone know where or how I could possibly purchase both stems for the 2824 and 2824-2 that might work ?

 

Thanks again,

Dpipe12 ( David)

 

 

[DPipe12]

Photos: 

[jdm]

Stems in pics are for 2824-2, the ones for 2824 have an heliced square section and are rare by now. 

Some sellers don't know or make a distinction. 

With Asian mov'ts you can't ever know which original parts fits, and vice-versa. 

[DPipe12]

so i think yo are telling me that my only solution would be to file the square section down?  Or would a stem extender be a solution for the broken one that does go through the pinions ? I have ordered some extenders from Esslinger.  Btw, the broken one in the picture is one of the ones that was shipped with the movement. I broke it when trying to insert after I had tried the other replacement ones I bought. 

[watchweasol]

Hi    David    find attached the 2824-2 tech sheet for the genuine ETA. If the crown wheel and castle wheel do not fit the new stem Its got to be a wrong one. You could try stoning it down and re polish but it requires quite a skill level to keep it square, Use a fine stone not a file which is way too rough.  You could use a stem extender as long as it fits the pipe without fouling.  unfortunaly there will be manufacturing tolerance  between the genuine and the clone, what if any makers marks on the clone?

To dismantle the keyless work you will need to remove the hands and dial and calendar / date discs to expose the keyless works, when dismantling take plenty of pictures for reference later on.

Regarding parts ESSLINGER in the US and COUSINS in the UK, Gleave & co (UK)   A.G.Thomas (UK) to name a few.   

ETA 2824-2 - Technical Communication.PDF

[jdm]

2 hours ago, DPipe12 said:

Btw, the broken one in the picture is one of the ones that was shipped with the movement.

Easy to see that there are differences, if you measure them you would find even more I think. But there should be just enough threads for an extender.

[DPipe12]

@watchweasol, @jdm, 

Thanks again for the info. I am assuming that the stem, ( the square portion) should fit through both the crown wheel and castle wheel. My new one does not.  But I don't think I have a stone that you refer to and certainly don't have the skill, being a novice.  So I guess my best bet at this point is to wait for my extenders to arrive and see if I can get lucky with that.  

I didn't notice any markings on either of the two types of clones I got a hold of. One was the ST 2130 2824-2 ( link below)

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Silver-Watch-Movement-Seagull-ST2130-For-2824-2-Automatic-25-Jewels-Balance/163642916241?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

and the others I got from someone, that seems to have been removed so I can't send a link. 

 

Though the Seagull is the one I currently was working on and it has the dial and hands already on, after a few tries !

I am not totally sure how to read the tech doc for order of assembly.  

I am not sure the easiest or best way to go forward. The first time I tried to get to where the crown wheel and castle wheel, I used the method I saw in Mark's video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b83l-1DmlQ&t=0s

Even if I do get the extender to seemingly fit I will have to realign what ever is fouled up.

I guess another solution would be to ask you where I might be able to get hold of a better movement that would fit the case and dial I have purchased, seen below, where I might not have all these troubles.  

https://alpha-1993.com/collections/watch-cases/products/seamaster-watch-case-for-eta-2824-2836

 

Again, thanks for your precious time, I appreciate it. Also I am just curious as to where you both are located.  I want to get good enough at this to make it a rewarding hobby. I am enjoying the challenge but am getting a little frustrated ( and broke) lol.  

 

Regards, 

David

 

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, DPipe12 said:

Also I am just curious as to where you both are located.

Me myself.. most of the time on the floor looking for small parts.

No, just joking.... sometime they stop on my lap.

Edited July 4, 2019 by jdm

[HSL]

7 hours ago, DPipe12 said:

Even if I do get the extender to seemingly fit I will have to realign what ever is fouled up.

I guess another solution would be to ask you where I might be able to get hold of a better movement that would fit the case and dial I have purchased, seen below, where I might not have all these troubles.  

I see you still are struggeling, from the stem pics you sent one can see you snapped the stem just like predicted when the movement is missaligned in the case.
I have limited (none) experiance with the clone movements but from the pic of the stems one can see that they seem to have different tolerances in manufacturing the parts, the lower stem would probably be a good fit for an ETA2824-2.
As many here I have tried out the watch case from Alpha and can confirm my fitted a ETA2824-2 quite good. 

Sometimes when people struggle or wants to learn more about watchrepair I gift away parts or a movement just because I belive in carma.
In your case I can as I previously said sponsor you with a movement totaly for free to practice on.
Below are some pics of it  and here is a link to a tutorial of how to take it apart and put it together again (Would work for the Seagull too).

And from here you can download the most recent technical documents for the lubrication scheme i refer to in the PDF documents.
https://shopb2b.eta.ch/2824-2.html#technical-documents

If you are intrested in this practice specimen below just send me a private message with the adress to send it to  .

 

[manodeoro]

17 hours ago, DPipe12 said:

Thanks All. 

 

Please forgive my Nubie status  I am obviously still learning. It may be that I am using the wrong stem and attempting to put that in first and therefore knocking things out of alignment. I actually did do what had been suggested by  @watchweasol  and implied by @jdm.  I had gone by Mark's video to get to those parts through the Non-dial side of the watch instead of from the dial-side keyless work. It didn't fit through the sliding pinion or the winding pinion where the broken one did. So how do I know if my clones are 2824 or 2824-2? And where could I get the proper stem. The one I got from Cas-Ker was a 401-1029, which apparently is the wrong one. I have ordered some from Ebay from China, but I am not sure if they are the right ones or when they will  get here in the States. I was thinking about filing down one of the replacements I bought but haven't yet done so. 

 

I am not sure of technique to disassemble and reassemble the keyless works. So any hints there?

Also, now that it appears to be broken in all of the movements I tried what is my easiest way to fix it.  I haven't tried to get to it from the dial side because the dial is already on and I was hoping not to have to remove that. 

I was going to  attach a photo of the stems and pinion's but maybe I will later. Right now I seem to be having and issue with Icloud and can't get to it. 

And thanks for that tech sheet it was helpful even though it was not the 2824 or 2824-2. Though I am still figuring out how to read it. I have not taken on the full disassemble and don't totally know how to follow the reassemble pictures it shows. 

And does anyone know where or how I could possibly purchase both stems for the 2824 and 2824-2 that might work ?

 

Thanks again,

Dpipe12 ( David)

 

 

Hi David

If you want to take you chance at desassembling/reassembling the keyless works only fro mthe dial side, here's a link that could be really usefull.

http://kronometric.org/article/eta/eta_keyless_assy.html

It shows an ETA 2800 but the 2824-2 is about the same.

Just read the HSL disassembling document to remove/put back  the date wheel.

Two points you should focus on :

1 - check twice that the stop lever is perfectly engaged on the clutch groove when you reassemble the keyless works

2 - take great care of the date corrector when putting back the minute train bridge

 

4 hours ago, HSL said:

I see you still are struggeling, from the stem pics you sent one can see you snapped the stem just like predicted when the movement is missaligned in the case.
I have limited (none) experiance with the clone movements but from the pic of the stems one can see that they seem to have different tolerances in manufacturing the parts, the lower stem would probably be a good fit for an ETA2824-2.
As many here I have tried out the watch case from Alpha and can confirm my fitted a ETA2824-2 quite good. 

Sometimes when people struggle or wants to learn more about watchrepair I gift away parts or a movement just because I belive in carma.
In your case I can as I previously said sponsor you with a movement totaly for free to practice on.
Below are some pics of it  and here is a link to a tutorial of how to take it apart and put it together again (Would work for the Seagull too).

And from here you can download the most recent technical documents for the lubrication scheme i refer to in the PDF documents.
https://shopb2b.eta.ch/2824-2.html#technical-documents

If you are intrested in this practice specimen below just send me a private message with the adress to send it to  .

 

WOW !!!  I've just downloaded you pdf documents as they will be REALLY usefull.

I've already taken my chance, with success, in disassembling/ressambling  a 2824-2, shooting pics at every step, but you pdfs are so great and documented .... congratulations for the work you did there.

I was thinking about taking parts of a 2840 swatch movement and putting them on a 2824-2 to make it a "low-beat" ... that way I could have a low beat ETA with holes on the mainplante for dil feet and movement tabs (swatch movements mainplates have no holes) ... your documents will be really helpfull for that purpose.

[watchweasol]

Hi David  You have had sterling advise from jdm and Hsl and a very good offer from Hsl which you should accept in the spirt it has been offered.  The members on this site want you to succeed in your quest and will always give good advise and direction    we wish you well.

[DPipe12]

@HSL  I think I sent yo a PM although I can't seem to find any trace of it in my messages.  Let me know if yo got it.  

 

 

 

 

[manodeoro]

[mention=5516]HSL[/mention]  I think I sent yo a PM although I can't seem to find any trace of it in my messages.  Let me know if yo got it.  
 
 
 
 

Hello

I re-read your thread and you say you worked on a Miyota 8215 So I have 1 question ...
In which position did you place the crown when you pulled the stem off your 2824-2 ?

With a Miyota 8215 you do that with the crown on the HOUR setting position (3rd position).

BUT with a 2824-2, Gen or clone, you should place the crown on the QUICK DATE setting position (2nd position).

If you do that and lubricate the square part of the stem with a TINY bit of Moebius 8300 Grease then the stem will come in easily.

Envoyé de mon moto g(7) power en utilisant Tapatalk

[HSL]

OK now there is a sequal out there to my two service notes on ETA  2824-2.
It is a Quick and Dirty buid description with this type of movement.

Build a noname watch with an ETA 2824-2 movement