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National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine


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Next up - mounting the heating element.

You might have noticed that the mounting holes (for the element into the machine), in my disk were not the same as for the Elma. Well, one look at the casting for the National Machine's base will explain that.

The whole base is a quite substantial, one-piece alloy casting. It must have been a sod to produce back in the days before computer aided design.

The original ceramic heating element, was secured by a single screwed bolt through it's centre, with an asbestos/ceramic tile between it and the metalwork on it's underside. Mine would have to attach by either two of three mounting points around its circumference. The pictures explain all.

A couple of drill holes later and I was done. The one thing I did not have to hand was some spacers to raise the heater away from the metal web of the base. I made do with an extra couple of nuts to provide the correct spacing, till I get some proper spacers. (He said - knowing full well, it will likely stay like that forever now...).

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With the element in place, it looks (almost) like it was designed that way. Well - a reasonable approximation at least.

I have used some fibre washers on the underside of the mounting points and under the securing bolts, in order to try to minimise heat conduction that would be present, if there were a metal to metal contact on the attachment points.

I also re-used the small, asbestos tile (about 25mm square) on the underside, which stabilises the off-centre mounted plate and sits between the PTC element and the web of the base. I have no qualms about re-using the asbestos tile, as it was in perfect condition, without any degradation. I may well choose to replace it, if I locate something else more suitable. But for now, it's not a priority.

The refurbished heater switch has also been remounted and can also be seen in this photograph. I could have replaced it with a more modern toggle switch, but to be honest, this one was in very good condition and after cleaning, performs flawlessly. It helps to preserve some of the originality of the cleaning machine.

 

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And the last one for today.

Now with the "drying chamber" in place, you can see the heating element nicely positioned at the base, and ready to perform drying duties.

Next - to cork, or not to cork... that is the question.

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Quote

Next - to cork, or not to cork... that is the question.

For that full authentic look,  I would cork...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natural-Cork-Dining-Table-Placemats-Coaster-Trivet-Drinks-Mats-Surface-Protector/292834814624?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170907081254%26meid%3Dc263661ca14641aa940435dac72c1951%26pid%3D100281%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26%26itm%3D292834814624&_trksid=p2045573.c100281.m3567

.. however plastic (a nylon cutting board, cut to size maybe), as that might be less inclined to get stained, would be my second choice.

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Good choice of options. I have a sneaking suspicion I may have a sheet of cork somewhere... I seem to remember it was about A4 sized and about 3mm thick. If I can remember what I bought if for originally, I may have a fighting chance of remembering where it was put...

:huh:

I also have some chemically resistant rubber somewhere as well... I know, I have some junk lying about the place!

It was used to line storage tanks and was chemicals and petroleums proof and also about 2mm to 3mm thick. I'm sure I have some offcuts somewhere in the shed. It would be ideal for seals in the jar lids.

I'm off for a rummage!

B)

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I have been doing a little research into these fine old machines and found some useful background.

The National brand was used by the company S.Lanzetter of Manchester. That much can be found out easily by simply reading the information on the makers’s plate. It seems that S.Lanzetter was one of the key members of the Jewish watch making and jewellers community in Manchester from around the turn of the 19th century. At the time, they were a very well known watchmaker’s materials and machinery supplier, and also responsible in their own right for patenting some key items. Such as this particular style of watch cleaning machine ( and other variants) from around 1945, electric soldering machines, and watch crystal cutting/grinding machines.

i managed to find a reference to a National Watch Cleaning machine that is retained in the UK’s History of Science Museum. I have included their extract for the item below. It describes the typical layout and functionality of this type of machine perfectly and mentions a spare rheostat, that seems to have been supplied with the exhibit.

I would be interested to know which company copied what, as the original Elma machines were pretty much identical, and it gets me thinking if the National, as well as later National designs, pre-dated them all? Who knows...

What I have further identified were other versions of what the manufacturer refers to as their “Model 1”. I have seen what appears to be later versions of model one that have an additional switch, which I presume isolates the rheostat and thus provides a proper off switch, rather than just relying on the rheostat being set to minimum (as mine is).

A further version of the model 1 additionally has a small indicator lamp on the rheostat housing, indicating if the heater is switched on. Again, mine does not have that. This leads me to assume that my model 1 is one of the early versions, which perhaps dates it to between 1945 to 1950. As this makes my machine likely to be around 60 to 70 years old - I feel like I am restoring something quite special, even though it is quite an ordinary machine.

I have also found an old advert for the National brand(as applied at the time) which may be an example of the advertising copy, as referred to in the science museum entry. This is really “of its time” and a delightful reminder of the whimsical advertising style, typical of the 1940’s and 50’s.

E0FFDAA2-87EC-44E2-A90E-5F795A6F57F5.thumb.jpeg.13a1c5270b3be874b7be9ad7730d243b.jpeg

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This advert also caught my eye, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, as it refers to 4 models of National Watch Cleaning Machine. I have now got photos of all four types and the similarities to any other machine I have seen (Elma etc.) are striking. Again leading me to muse over which came first.

The second point is in the detail. In the listing for the Model 2 and 3, they refer to both watch and clock baskets being supplied. This makes me wonder about previous posts on these forums, where others have said that their National Machines, had 80mm baskets, whilst the one I have, comes with a 65mm basket. I just wonder if the 80mm basket is therefore a clock basket and larger to accommodate the larger parts? It would seem to make sense, as whichever size of basket is used, the width of the jars supplied has to be suitable ( I.e. large enough), to accommodate the larger and smaller baskets. Certainly the jars on mine would easily be large enough to allow use of an 80mm basket.

Also, contemporary watch cleaning machines (Elma Super Elite, etc.) also seem to use 65mm  cleaning baskets, but their glass jars are all very much smaller than the early Nationals, and would likely not accommodate an 80mm basket size. I just wonder if the industry as a whole, just started concentrating on automated watch cleaning, and just let the clock works cleaning side of things lapse.

Makes you think...

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And finally, the last one. (Although many more can be found by scouring the Internet.)

this purports to be. Mark VI-C (I think). Now go on, look at it and tell me that this machine is not where Elma got their idea from! I just wonder if either the original patent that National took out on the machine ran out, or, if National allowed others to freely license the basic design? 

 

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A little further research and then on with the show...

A quick browse through patent databases, shows that one Saul Lanzetter applied for and was awarded a patent for this design of watch cleaning machine in October 1937. A brief narrative is reproduced here:

Quote

Apparatus for cleaning watches and other small parts. LANZETTER, S. Oct. 21, 1937, No. 28667. [Class 139] Apparatus for cleaning watch and other small parts in which the parts are placed in a wire mesh basket F mounted on the vertical spindle d of an electric motor D and adapted to be submerged and rotated in a plurality of vessels E in turn, the vessels being of square crosssection, is characterized in that the motor is mounted on a flanged plate c forming the lid of the vessel in use and having two or more depending baffles c<1> which assist turbulence.

Interestingly, the patent application is entitled "Improvements in apparatus for cleaning watch parts and other small parts of machinery."

It may be reading too much onto this title to assume that there may have been a previous patent, pre-dating this one, as this one refers to "improvements".

Also of interest, there were 2 patent applications from US companies in 1944 and 1945 which cite the Lanzetter patent, and three from Germany in 1956, 1960 and 1961 (only one of which was actually published), which also cite the Lanzetter patent as a reference.

Incidentally - the two US patents refer to machines which look strikingly similar to the National Model VI-C above, and the National No 4. machine in the earlier advert, showing the four jars side by side ( this seems to be referred to as a lab machine, rather than a repair shop machine).

Naturally, all patents or applications referred to above are now expired.

For me anyway, I think this may clear up which watch cleaning machine may have come first (at least in this machine format anyway): The S. Lanzetter National Electric Watch Cleaning Machine, circa 1937.

 

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Back to the job in hand.

I managed to find the cork I thought I may have had, lurking in a box under the stairs. It was the most part of an A4 sized sheet, so more than enough for my purposes - to sit the jars on whilst they are in the machine.

Looking at the metal bases, I really can't be convinced if there ever was any cork or any other material for that matter there. But for me anyway, the idea of the glass jars sitting directly on the metal base just seems wrong and I would prefer some cork there as a cushion.

It's about as tidy as it needs to be, given the shape of the metal webbing. I suppose I could have cut-out squares of cork, but then it would leave potential weak, unsupported areas of cork, which would likely need some form of strengthening.

Anyway - this application suits me and helps the jars sit a bit more stable in their locations.

Whilst I am in the vicinity, so to speak, I have also added an earth lead which will bond the chassis to the incoming mains lead, once fitted. This is visible in these photos.

 

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Edited by Moose
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Next up is the motor speed control.

I did think long and hard about my original aim of maintaining as much originality as possible. And, there is no doubt that the original speed control rheostat was a) original and b) functional. But - as I was an electronics technician in an earlier life, and also health and safety professional in a more recent life, the safety aspects weighed heavily upon my concience.

Logic played it's part as well - with the original rheostat put back into service, albeit with some hand-made guarding to keep out the fingers of the unwary, it would be safe-ish, for me to use, as long as I kept my wits about me.

BUT NOT SAFE FOR ANYONE ELSE unaware of what was underneath.

Only the knowledge of what lurked underneath would be keeping me safe, but anyone else might not have a second chance.

As can be seen from the photo below, all of the wire on the resistors is not only unguarded, but within millimetres of the level of the base. Also, the incoming mains terminals to the rheostat are also dangerously unguarded.

With today's knowledge, it is difficult to fathom how this ever could have been considered safe to use.

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I certainly did not want to replace the motor, as this is so very visible, all attempts at maintaining the illusion of originality would fail. A solution to the problem could only be achieved with a safer, replacement speed control, which could work with the original mains voltage motor.

Fortunately, these are readily available in the form of a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM), motor speed controller circuit. These will take in the 220V incoming mains supply and provide a variable output of between 50V and the incoming supply voltage. These are well known devices and proven to work with even simple (old) motors.

So, a PWM circuit was obtained (at incredibly reasonable cost), and measured up.

In an attempt to at least have the "illusion" of originality, I was determined to use the original hole for the rotary speed control, as well as the original Bakelite control knob. With the shaft on the rotary potentiometer too short for this, I had to do some more metal bashing.

As can be seen below, I used the old rheostat as a donor, for a short length of it's shaft, which I would mate to the new potentiometer, allowing the Bakelite knob to operate. This was cut to shape and filed to mate with the new potentiometer shaft. This was then soldered together and thus ready for installation.

You can see in the photo, the size and technical comparison between the old rheostat and the new PWM controller circuit.

 

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Installation of the PWM Controller.

This needed two new mounting holes to be drilled in the main base of the watch machine, the old rheostat fixing points being way too far away to be useful.

Thankfully - and by one of those happy coincidences that just make your day, when they happen - two new fixing holes could be drilled and they would be hidden by the old control knob when it was in place. Happy Days!

As can be seen in the photos below, the new controller occupies far less space and, just by itself, is a much safer solution than the original.  I also hope that motor speed control will be far smoother than with the original. I will still make up an internal cover of sorts, just because I can, and I because am minded to.

I cleaned up the old Bakelite knob a little and ran a little silver paint into the arrow head engraving, to brighten it up. And, as can be seen, the two new mounting holes for the PWM controller are hidden by the knob. Result!

Finally, I replaced the original mounting screws for the old controller, so I did not have holes left on the dial. I think this is the best compromise I could have arrived at, as at least from the outside, the old machine looks to be still original and nothing visibly takes away from its undoubted age. After all - I am dealing with something likely to be over 75 years old and I was trying to take nothing away from that.

That's it for the base unit - so all that remains is to remount the motor etc. to the base and rewire it all.

The jars have been cleaned, I have fitted new rubber seals to the jar lids - I decided against cork as although likely to have been more original - I also had some nitrile rubber sheet to hand and used that instead. I can always refit this with cork later, if I find out for sure these old National machines used cork. :ph34r:

Nothing "build related" for a couple days as I have other work to do, but hoping to get it finished at the weekend. Maybe a short testing video sometime after that.

Thanks for reading.

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A short one today.

I was bothered about using rubber seals in the jars. I have never seen the original seal in a National jar, but thought anyway, that cork would have been far more likely.

So cork it is. Obviously, you can't buy the seals and Elma (etc.) seals are all the wrong size, so the rest of that cork sheet I had was used, and I cut them by hand.

These jars are quite a bit bigger that it's contemporaries and I think that is a legacy from these machines also originally being supplied with clock cleaning baskets, as an option. The jars are around 110mm square with around a 90mm neck size. Don't think I have seen any available as spares anywhere, so likely difficult to get hold of without the purchase of a whole machine. Anyway, I'm happy with these now.

 

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20 hours ago, Moose said:

 

You can see in the photo, the size and technical comparison between the old rheostat and the new PWM controller circuit.

 

IMG_1561.jpg

That old rheostat looks exactly like the speed controller in a very old train set my Dad passed down to me. It was a huge brick of a thing which sadly failed on its first attempt and I never did get around to getting another sorted but still have the train set.

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Yeah, I can image that sort of thing on a old (very old) train set. It's all a bit "Frankenstein's monster" really. The mains come in and connects the the rotary wiper. It normally rests on the first brass conduction (where it is in the photo). and this conductor is not connected to anything, providing the whole thing with a sort of rudimentary "Off" switch.

Rotating the dial wipes the mains across decreasing amounts of resistance, until the minimum resistance point is reached when fully rotated.

Quite scary really - bear in mind that the red insulated lead is normally connected directly to 220V at all times (unless unplugged), and that it is no more than 5mm away from the metal of the base when installed. There's no insulation between the rheostat and the metalwork of the base, excepting for the insulation on the wire. AND this wire is under continual rotational stress every time the machine is used. The wire I removed had all of its original insulation perished and it literally just flaked off in my fingers when I removed it for replacement.

I actually fabricated a piece of insulation which would sit between the rheostat and the case work, but in the end, my conscience got the better of me - it had to go.

If any one else has one of these National Machines, or is considering getting one from somewhere - I strongly recommend examining this item carefully, or more practically, completely replace it, as I have done.

So unsafe!

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"Safety" would be provided in the form of an earth on the metal case, and a fuse in the plug.

The only protection this actually provides is to ensure you *probably* don't burn the building down, assuming these two things do what they are designed to do. There will still be a big bang and a flash and a lot of magic smoke released if there is a fault.

However, if the earth wire is disconnected (or if the earth pin on the mains plug is nicely covered in a thick layer of insulating crud), then when that red wire with the flakey insulation moves,  falls off, or somehow contacts the case, the entire thing becomes live at mains potential (or perhaps a few volts below, if the crud is mildly conductive).

This can make for a very disturbing and potentially fatal experience if you were to grab the metalwork.

You would probably survive in a modern house with RCD protected circuits, but out in the shed or wherever, and "protected" by nothing but a 30A ring main fuse... you would probably be clean out of luck.

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I agree. If there is one thing I know well (that's not watches, by the way, but I am trying), it's electrics. This thing will be as safe as it's design allows once I'm done. Which means all the lives and neutrals will be the right way around, all terminals sheathed with appropriate insulation, wiring tidied away and secured out of the way, and earth bonding made and checked. Final power consumption checked and then appropriately fused at the plug. Can't imagine it needs more than 3A. Finally, PAT tested to make sure it will at least pass that. I may even label it (for my own benefit), if I think it justified, but I suspect that the basic design means that it would likely fail the visual inspection part of any half competent Class 1 (metal) equipment test.

Incidentally - the fuse is not really there to protect anyone - it's there to protect the equipment mainly. You you be very lucky indeed if the fuse blew before enough current had flowed through you first. Like you mention - Proper wiring and correctly protected circuits are more likely to work. That is assuming they are up to date and regularly tested. It never used to surprise me, the large number of private households that have not had a check in the past ten years or sometimes much more, to see if their house wiring is considered safe. As well of the number of half-arsed "self installed circuits" that are so unsafe, it beggars belief.

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As it happens!

Inspired and interested by this thread and having, for a long time cleaned manually with naphtha and IPA etc, (which has always been adequate for me and more than adequate volume wise as I only work on one at a time). I chanced a bid on one on eBay which I am now arranging transport for and appears to be the same (or close) as yours.

So I'll be checking it and re reading this thread to see what I need to do to ensure it's safe to use.

It'll only be accessed by me and only used when I'm there and unplugged at other times so I'll be looking for info on cleaning fluid and operation instructions once I know it's usable.

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Ahh... well done. :thumbsu:

I was watching this one on eBay and was wondering it it would anyone on the forum. Good for you!

well, I hope there is enough in these simple posts of mine to get you going and refurbish it to the level you want. I am pleased to say that mine is now nearly completed and I just have to do some quick photography on the required base, and then test with fluids.

cant wait to see yours when it arrives and maybe we can compare notes.

G.

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It's bookmarked for delivery Monday, which in reality means Tuesday or Wednesday because, here in the highlands. When the courier says delivery Monday they really mean we'll get it to Inverness Monday and give it to the royal mail because we heard there are dragons and wizards and feudal armies north of there and we're too scared to go any further.

Then royal mail deliver it 'when it gets here'.

I'll have the chance for a quick going over and see if it works but then I'm off with my son for a couple of weeks for the summer hols so it'll be after when I get to play with it properly.

What do you plan to use for cleaning and rinsing solution?

I'm looking at horolene currently. Looks expensive but dilutes 7 to 1 so should be quite economical I hope.

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I think you made a great purchase, and yes, I admit bias. They are very robust machines that have already lasted likely over 60 to 70 years, and with a bit of TLC, should keep on going and providing useful service.

Your machine looks to have the separate on/off switch for the speed control, which mine does not have, but is still identified as a Model 1, as is mine. Yours has a much better makers plate on the front than mine, so maybe has not has as much use. Hopefully then, yours will have plenty of life left in it.

For cleaning fluids, I’m going to go with something very original. I have yet to find out exactly what the National recommended fluids consisted of, but are likely to be similar to what I am going to use. Now I know this risks “many” opinions from others as to what their particular recommendations are, and I respect that. But, all I am going to say is, this was always good enough for Elma, so it’s good enough for me, at least to get me started as a hobbyist. I will likely only do one cleaning a week and not on a commercial basis, so this will do nicely.

For the first wash, I plan to use Elma 1:9 cleaner which, as it is named, is diluted 1 part cleaner, to nine parts tap water. Elma themselves say that tap water is OK as the formulation allows for this.

For the first rinse, I will use de-ionised water, again in line with recommendations from Elma when using the sequence described.

Final rinse will be Elma Suprol. Followed by a spin-off and then heat drying.

I have not found any instructions for the National yet, but as these machines are all so generic, the Elma Instructions for the Super Elite, should easily work well for both the sequence, timings and cleaning fluids. (They are described in the attached instructions.)

Others will also  have their opinions as well, so we can always experiment to find out what works best in our own situations.

I have uploaded the Elma instructions in full, which are freely available for download direct from Elma, Cousins and Walsh, so I do not believe there should be any copyright issues as long as they are reproduced in full.

I’m looking forward to hearing about your National when you have time, and I hope That my ramblings here help out in some way, to get yours back into productive use.

Instructions For HC511 - Elma Super Elite Watch Cleaning Machine.pdf

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Thanks for those instructions, I'll have a read through.

Like yourself I'll maybe be doing one a week, perhaps one a fortnight so my biggest Quezon mark is how long a solution will keep once diluted.

The Horolene came to mind as recommended by Mark (of the forum creation) in his video, (which is an Elma as per those instructions).

When I receive it I'll post some images of the undersides and plate etc, the listing said it had a replacement motor and the wiring you can certainly see has been changed so we'll see how it looks.

I'd have preferred another layer or two of baskets with compartments like the Elma as I like to try and keep each component section and screws separate but it might just mean I have to get more of the little mesh baskets I use for endstones.

I'm sure I'll be re reading your tweaks and re config.

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