I'm so sad with my MS cleaning/oiling results!

[aac58]

Yes I am sad. So far I have only serviced two mainsprings, but they ended to be worse than before.

I open the barrel of my Seiko 70xx watch, take the spring out carefully and then I use a piece of paper sinked on naphtha to clean the old oils. Then I use another piece of paper sinked on IPA to rinse the spring. And then a third piece of paper with some drops of 8200 to oil it.

I clean the barrel and arbor in the ultrasonic, also using naphtha and then IPA. Dry it properly and apply 4 drops of 8217 grease, in quarters.

Lastly I insert the spring into the barrel, manually, mount the arbor and close the barrel.

The problem is that althoug the watches run with these MS, they run only for a few hours after wearing them all day. The last watch I've serviced only runs for 4 or 5 hours, sometimes less than that, so I've replaced the barrel complete with an old one, not serviced, and now the problem is gone, so no doubt the fault is mine.

I guess the spring is slipping inside the barrel. Is 4 drops of 8217 too much? How do you oils mainsprings?

[Nucejoe]

Roughen up barrel's inside wall with fine sandpaper.

[watchweasol]

As Nucejoe says roughen up the barrel walls, I would use a fine wet/dry paper used with a bit of oil probably finer than 120 grit, maybe 240 just to take the polish off the walls

[rogart63]

I have problems with 7 series mainspring also . I only oil the barrel walls with 8217 very little. 

[meanoldmanning]

I have problems with 7 series mainspring also . I only oil the barrel walls with 8217 very little. 

 

Same here. I have found if I use as much 8217 7 series as I do in a 6 series barrel I can’t get more than 3 or so turns before the spring slips. So I barely use any on these.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[matabog]

maybe one needs a new MS, maybe the bridle lost it's hardness. 

Use the old MS instead, the one that works.

I don't think making the MS wall more rough is a good idea (in time)....

 

What is the amplitude of the watch when the MS slips?

 

[aac58]

Yes, roughing it lost me a bit as I don't see the point to doing it and oiling at the same time  It can be a technique of course, but I haven't heard of it before. The MS/barrel set was working before I put my hands on it 

Next time I'll put just one drop of 8217 instead of four.

About the amplitude, I don't know, I do not have a timegrapher yet.

[oldhippy]

 

First of all Seiko barrels where made so as not to be opened. You were supposed to replace the complete unit every (I think) 5 or 7 years. Now parts are become obsolete, it is common practise to clean and lubricate the mainspring.  If you can clean the all the barrel parts including the mainspring in your watch cleaning machine. Never stretch out the spring and clean it by hand. This can cause the spring to become weak. If you do not have a watch mainspring winder, you can put the spring back by hand. Use tissue paper so your fingers do not meet with the spring. If it is an auto you should use braking grease not oil on the spring and inside the barrel. The only place to use oil is where the arbor makes contact with the barrel.

[aac58]

Thank you oldhippy, I basically comply with what you're saying. 70xx barrels complete are no longet available, so we have to open them, or I tought I had to open and clean it. Everything by hand, using gloves but no estrapada involved as I don't have one, but I've seen lots of videos doing it just by hand. I don't think I've bended the spring or damaged it, but of course it's always a possibility.

I've oiled the spring itself with Moebius 8200 grase, the barrel/arbor friction area with HP 1300 oil and the barrel wall with 8217 which is a braking grease. I want to keep trying servicing those springs, but I'm going to rest for a few weeks.

[saswatch88]

On 6/14/2019 at 6:19 AM, oldhippy said:

 

First of all Seiko barrels where made so as not to be opened. You were supposed to replace the complete unit every (I think) 5 or 7 years. Now parts are become obsolete, it is common practise to clean and lubricate the mainspring.  If you can clean the all the barrel parts including the mainspring in your watch cleaning machine. Never stretch out the spring and clean it by hand. This can cause the spring to become weak. If you do not have a watch mainspring winder, you can put the spring back by hand. Use tissue paper so your fingers do not meet with the spring. If it is an auto you should use braking grease not oil on the spring and inside the barrel. The only place to use oil is where the arbor makes contact with the barrel.

 I work a lot on seikos and old hippy is right,  for the 70XX series you can buy the MS and barrel separate now and i have never seen them sold complete. but good servicing practice is to replace the MS, esp if its been 3+ years since the last service. breaking grease is a must, i only use 8217 on manual winds. kluber makes an excellent breaking grease but cost about $65 a worthy investment if plan on working on more automatics. I dont however agree with hippy on using breaking grease on the spring, i havent heard of this before and i would imagine could decrease your amplitude, but then again old hippy knows his stuff so i could be wrong here.

also i recommend using a MS winder for sure, you can easily warp an MS when hand winding it, and that could also cause a decrease in wind down time and amp. clean the mainspring with a dry cleaner or ultrasonic, the only time you should stretch is when applying the grease. as far as sanding goes never done it and never plan to but thats not to say it wont work.

[anilv]

You need to have an idea of how much power is left in the mainspring.

Remove the rotor and 2nd intermediate winding gear (the one with the left-hand thread). Put a full wind on the ms using the screw on the ratchet wheel. Wind it until it slips the barrel wall, and continue until it is just about to slip again.. you may need to do this a few times to get a feel of when the ms will slip. Take note of the time and let the watch run down and take note of how many hours its run. Give it a shake and let it run down again in case its a bit of dirt in the train. An unwound mainspring should not tick more than 15 seconds or so.

Next use a screw driver on the ratchet wheel screw, hold it and lift the click  (you may need to backwind a bit), release the screwdriver and count how many turns of the ratchet wheel is left. Usually half a turn is about all there is if the watch has wound down. If there is a lot of pressure in the mainspring then you have a train problem. Be careful at this stage because if the ms has a lot of power it can slip, Do it in stages and release the click when your fingers cant maneuver further (you'll see what I mean).

If having wound the ms fully and the watch only runs for 4-5  hours but not much power is left in the ms then the mainspring is either wrongly installed, bad or incorrect.

Do you have a timegrapher? Personally I suspect the watch is out of beat, ie ticks and tocks don't balance.

Good luck!

Anilv

 

[aac58]

Thank you anilv, I'll try what you propose.

Why do you think it's out of balance? I do not have a timegrapher yet, it,s my next purchase in a couple of months. I've tried the open souce application TG, but there's to much noise in my area so the readings were wrong, over 300º amplitude and 15 ms beat error, so nothing I can rely on.

Would an out of balance problem stop the watch after a few hours resting on a table?

[marcoskaiser]

9 hours ago, anilv said:

You need to have an idea of how much power is left in the mainspring.

Remove the rotor and 2nd intermediate winding gear (the one with the left-hand thread). Put a full wind on the ms using the screw on the ratchet wheel. Wind it until it slips the barrel wall, and continue until it is just about to slip again.. you may need to do this a few times to get a feel of when the ms will slip. Take note of the time and let the watch run down and take note of how many hours its run. Give it a shake and let it run down again in case its a bit of dirt in the train. An unwound mainspring should not tick more than 15 seconds or so.

Next use a screw driver on the ratchet wheel screw, hold it and lift the click  (you may need to backwind a bit), release the screwdriver and count how many turns of the ratchet wheel is left. Usually half a turn is about all there is if the watch has wound down. If there is a lot of pressure in the mainspring then you have a train problem. Be careful at this stage because if the ms has a lot of power it can slip, Do it in stages and release the click when your fingers cant maneuver further (you'll see what I mean).

If having wound the ms fully and the watch only runs for 4-5  hours but not much power is left in the ms then the mainspring is either wrongly installed, bad or incorrect.

Do you have a timegrapher? Personally I suspect the watch is out of beat, ie ticks and tocks don't balance.

Good luck!

Anilv

 

This is worthy of a walk-through post. 

[AndyHull]

7 hours ago, aac58 said:

Thank you anilv, I'll try what you propose.

Why do you think it's out of balance? I do not have a timegrapher yet, it,s my next purchase in a couple of months. I've tried the open souce application TG, but there's to much noise in my area so the readings were wrong, over 300º amplitude and 15 ms beat error, so nothing I can rely on.

Would an out of balance problem stop the watch after a few hours resting on a table?

Wrap the watch and the microphone in multiple layers of bubble wrap, it is a fairly efficient noises blocker.
I suspect that even a dedicated time grapher machine will struggle if there is a lot of ambient noise.

You could also fabricate a noise deadening chamber out of a wooden box lined with upholstery foam or bubble wrap.

If you want to get fancy, use this stuff.
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pyramids-Foam-Self-Adhesive-Insulation-Accoustic-Hifi-Sound-Insulation/143236451168?hash=item21598ecb60:g:JvQAAOSwerdamIOT

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by AndyHull

[mikepilk]

I just rebuilt a 7002A this weekend.  I was very careful with cleaning/oiling, fitted a new mainspring and used a few dots of 8213 on the barrel. 

The gear train, balance are as free as they could be - amplitude about 235 deg DU/DD.

Seems about typical for the few Seiko's I have. I know they have low amplitudes, so I'm happy as it is.

[anilv]

A balance which is out of beat will have an imbalance.. If it is out of balance the hairspring may not have sufficient power to pull the balance back. There are technical terms but in essence the ms forces the balance in one direction and the hairspring pulls it back in the other. Even if the watch is out of beat, a full mspring may get it to work for a few hours but once power tails off then it will stop.

You can install the complete balance in a bare mainplate and see if the impulse jewel (below the balance) is centred. This will be a good starting point and the watch should run well enough to be regulated by the rate adjuster (+/-).

One app I use is wildspectra .. available for android. Not as good as a timegrapher but enough to see the beat and rate. Note that even a running fan in the next room will affect the reading so its essential to have a quiet environment or source a hi powered microphone.

Good luck.

Anilv

[anilv]

One way to check if the watch is in beat is to wind the ratchet wheel slightly, less than a quarter turn. Stop the balance if it is turning. Swing the balance a bit in one direction (around 5-10 degrees to start with), if it starts thats good. Now stop the balance again. Now swing it in the other direction the same amount. What you're aiming for is for the balance to start running if the balance is nudged the same amount in either direction.

On some movements you can also eyeball the pallet fork movement, it should be at rest in the middle of its travel when the balance is at rest. This is not so easy on the 7xxx series.