ETA 2824-2 setting problem

[deloidtoc]

I just finished two ETA 2824-2 watches (Stowa & Sinn)...no problems.

I'm working on a third (Stowa) that was manhandled. There was a broken blued screw top and a complete screw loose in the watch. I'm not done going through the watch yet but the watch had an additional problem with keyless works. At position 1 (fully in) the winding wasn't catching well. At position 2 the winding was engaged (was supposed to be calendar set). I've removed and reinstalled all components and I cannot see a problem. The keyless works is isolated except with a connection to the barrel. I don't think I tested the previous two in this manner but I can't see how the isolation should make a difference. Before I fully clean and install all the components I was wondering what I am missing that is surely obvious.
I have pics in the three stages of the stem settings attached.

Thanks for your help.
 

 

[deloidtoc]

OK. I was watching TV and I started thinking about the problem when it suddenly hit me. I was playing back what I could recall and I remembered dropping the clutch one time. If you look at the pictures you can see that the clutch was placed upside down. Somehow I thought I picked it up correctly and popped it back in without thinking. 
Fatigue...

[noirrac1j]

Good work on mentally backtracking and figuring out what you did wrong. Most of the mistakes and slips I've made have been late at night or when I'm rushing to finish a project. Its best to step back and cover everything up for another time if fatigued.

J

[VWatchie]

I thought surely this must be a worn out sliding or winding pinion. That happens on these movements as these parts are made of brass and really can’t take too much abuse. Anyway, looking at the first picture it was obvious the clutch wheel (or sliding pinion) was mounted in the wrong direction.

Yes, old post but interesting!

[nickelsilver]

The winding and and sliding pinions are definitely steel on these (and every other watch I've seen). But the overall system of levers in the 2824 is delicate- if one thing gets just a little bit tweeked, it can be totally invisible what's wrong but it just won't go into setting position correctly. Replace parts with visually identical new ones and it works great. If I get another one with this issue I'll put the parts on the profile projector and see exactly what's up.

[LittleWatchShop]

Funny this thread should get refreshed today...I was working on a 2824 yesterday.  I think this is the second one I have serviced.

What I noticed last time and this time is that replacing the stem once the watch has been re cased, is problematic.  Twice, while replacing the stem, the clutch jumped out from under the yoke.  I had to remove the hands and dial, calendar, and reset it. GRRRRR!!  Then, observing how this movement works, I can see that the setting lever jumper spring pushes the yoke toward the "setting position" so more often than not, if you set the stem in "winding" position, upon removal, it tends to want to move to "setting" position and then you are screwed.  So the LAST attempt, I put the stem in "setting" position before removal and all was well.  This is DAMN tricky!!

Seems like I read somewhere...the guidance in general is to put the watch in "setting" position before removing the stem.

Thoughts?  I am all ears.

BTW, other than this issue, I like this movement.  I see that it has been copied several times.

 

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The winding and and sliding pinions are definitely steel on these (and every other watch I've seen).

Thanks for the correction! I read something about these ETA 2824 parts (winding and sliding pinion) being weak and that’s also my personal experience. So, I wrongly assumed they were made of brass. Anyway, I’m writing this sitting on a train so I’ll have get back about what I read and my experience.

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

the clutch jumped out

sliding pinion

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The winding and and sliding pinions are definitely steel on these (and every other watch I've seen). But the overall system of levers in the 2824 is delicate- if one thing gets just a little bit tweeked, it can be totally invisible what's wrong but it just won't go into setting position correctly. Replace parts with visually identical new ones and it works great. If I get another one with this issue I'll put the parts on the profile projector and see exactly what's 

You confirmed the conclusion I was hesitant to make,  If the crown hits the ground when watch is dropped, keyless gets messed up,  usually damges the  return bar whose end section doesn't wana get in the  grove peacefully. 

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I thought surely this must be a worn out sliding or winding pinion. That happens on these movements as these parts are made of brass and really can’t take too much abuse.

 

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The winding and and sliding pinions are definitely steel on these (and every other watch I've seen).

So, I found the article misleading me to believe the winding pinion and sliding pinion were made of brass:

"Additionally, brass components within the manual winding system, which were common failure points in the ETA, have been replaced with hardened steel." ~Damasko Quietly Reveals New In-House Caliber A26 (search the article for "brass")

Now that I've reviewed my ETA 2824-2 and ETA 2836-2 service pictures it sure looks like these parts are made of steel. Although likely not hardened steel as in the A26 calibre.

I bought a cheap used Hamilton Khaki watch on eBay housing an ETA 2824-2 which couldn't be wound manually properly, and it was quite a mystery to me until I realized the "cogs" on the sliding pinion and the winding pinion hooking into one another were worn out causing it (and other nasty things). The previous owner likely didn't trust the automatic winding. Full story from about here.

So, not brass, but not the best type of steel either, it would seem!?

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

sliding pinion

I believe Americans call it a clutch and Europeans a sliding pinion. And perhaps that's your point?!

[LittleWatchShop]

20 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I believe Americans call it a clutch and Europeans a sliding pinion. And perhaps that's your point?!

Well, when it comes to keyless works, I often have to refer to a diagram to get the terms correct.  In my head (from what my dad taught me) I call it a clutch, but I see others call it a sliding pinion.  Just trying to be as accurate with my terminology as possible!

[nickelsilver]

I can only imagine that they've put hardened steel washers on wear points where the flat pinions ride.

 

I'm no megafan of ETA, but one thing they know is metallurgy. I've worked on enough of their old stuff, and the ETA (Valjoux) 7750 is a benchmark piece for other various brands for "aging", and I've spoken to the test guys, ETA has their alloys and heat treatment honed. I have also "outside" bored the post that takes the flat pinion after the sliding (clutch) pinion and sleeved it with steel for numerous watches- but not ETA so far.

[VWatchie]

50 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

In my head (from what my dad taught me) I call it a clutch, but I see others call it a sliding pinion.  Just trying to be as accurate with my terminology as possible!

As they say: "dear child has many names". As you and your dad are Texans it strengthens my theory. That is, "clutch" in the US and "sliding pinion" in Europe/England.

I've been meaning to compile a list of the various names used for the same parts, but never got around to it. For example, I believe the term "dial train" is used in the US and "motion works" in Europe. I do prefer "dial train". Also, "return bar" in the US(?) and "yoke" in Europe, etc.

[VWatchie]

14 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I'm no megafan of ETA, but one thing they know is metallurgy.

Could it be that ETA saved on the modern (current) automatic movements with the rationale that no one will wind them manually much anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if the steel used in the mechanical ETA 2804 (for example) is of a much better quality (hardened steel) than in the ETA 2824. As ETA are making millions of movements, that could possibly save them quite a bit of money, especially as I would expect the modern automatic movements to be about a hundred or even a thousand times more popular than the mechanical versions.

Anyway, JM2C!

Edited February 17, 2022 by VWatchie

[LittleWatchShop]

18 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

As they say: "dear child has many names". As you and your dad are Texans it strengthens my theory. That is, "clutch" in the US and "sliding pinion" in Europe/England.

I've been meaning to compile a list of the various names used for the same parts, but never got around to it. For example, I believe the term "dial train" is used in the US and "motion works" in Europe. I do prefer "dial train". Also, "return bar" in the US(?) and "yoke" in Europe, etc.

I got stung the other day in the clock group on this forum.  Did not know what an "anchor" was.  I always called it a "verge" but now I am thinking that "verge" is the term specifically for that asymetric shape whereas "anchor" is quite symmetrical.

In my professional life, I am a patent consultant, serving as an expert witness.  In the world of patents, understanding and interpreting lexicography is the sine qua non of success.  Metaphorically, "anchor" wins the case and "verge" loses it (broadly speaking).

[Plato]