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Ingersoll Triumph PW "cannon pinion" fit


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Hi,

This is my first watch repair project beyond battery replacement and bracelet adjustment. After buying 2 non running Ingersol Triumph pin pallet lever pocket watches I now realise that they are not the best to start with, however now that I have them in bits I'm going to continue. One watch was really a basket case, the other ran for a few seconds then stopped, I have stripped both, cleaned the good bits and reassembled one watch (several times) I have got it to wind and to run but when I try to adjust the hands the crown is jammed solid. To recap, the crown will wind the watch but not change the hands. This watch doesn't have a conventional cannon pinion, it has a rather flat pinion (see photo). Please excuse my terminology, everything seems to be a pinion.

 IMG_20190502_090903__01.thumb.jpg.6987fb07ad1871d44571faa57ed56a85.jpg

 

So this little pinion (gear wheel) fits on the shaft (pinion?) of the centre wheel, I suspect that it is too tight, as I understand with a conventional cannon pinion there should be some friction to drive the hand but also enough slippage  to allow adjustment of the time. I'm not sure with this watch what sort of fit the pinion should be, and I would like to ask for advise before I remove any material and make it too loose.

Best regards, Alan

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Hi alan, Give the caliber No, view of the full movement helps, I see if I have the same calib or one of the family.

Removal of material dosn,t sound right.Lets find out what is causing the fault before fixing it.  

 

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It would have been far better to leave it alone and not to remove it. It should be friction tight. By removing, you might have opened the hole and not realising it, the metal is quite soft. A couple of things to look out for with these movements. Both are to do with the balance and its working. 1, the pivots on the balance are prone to wear and become blunt, you can compare the pivots to a blunt pencil to a sharp one, when worn the action of the balance will be poor. 2, the cups that the balance tips sit in can also wear and become scored inside again causing poor action, these can be re-faced or better still re-place them. It is very hard to sharpen the balance tips without a lathe.   

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Thanks for the reply, my aim is to get the watch running, I don't think at this stage it will ever keep good time or be used for anything other than a practice piece so as long as the balance can turn then that will do for me. I'll move on to a more suitable movement after this one and hopefully develop some finer skills. 

So if the pinion should be a friction fit, which it is, then something else is wrong for the crown to be jammed. I'll put the centre wheel and pinion back on and leave it on, rebuild the movement again and see if I can work out where it is jamming.

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6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It would have been far better to leave it alone and not to remove it. It should be friction tight. By removing, you might have opened the hole and not realising it, the metal is quite soft. A couple of things to look out for with these movements. Both are to do with the balance and its working. 1, the pivots on the balance are prone to wear and become blunt, you can compare the pivots to a blunt pencil to a sharp one, when worn the action of the balance will be poor. 2, the cups that the balance tips sit in can also wear and become scored inside again causing poor action, these can be re-faced or better still re-place them. It is very hard to sharpen the balance tips without a lathe.   

Hi @oldhippy ,   what dose re- facing the cups involve,  what tools do I need? 

A link about re- facing is a good start for me, I have not seen any cups available locally, but do have assortment of staffs for such movements. Have a rather new looking ancre on bench and plenty of used parts and same movements. Thanks in advance for your help.

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After another rebuild my hands are still not adjusting and I cannot seem to grasp how the power is transmitted from the crown to the centre wheel to turn the minute hand as the centre wheel is part of the power train, connected to the  mainspring barrel and the third wheel therefor not free to spin and move the hand. Does the centre wheel somehow disengage from the power train when adjusting the time, letting it turn with the movement of the crown? I have removed the mainspring barrel to eliminate that from locking the centre wheel.

I had a good look at the balance pivots, they look sharp and pointed so good news there. Unfortunately the hairspring has suffered from this rebuild and is no longer flat, I'm going to leave this until the rest of the movement is working as I think I'm now just chasing my tail.

IMG_20190502_204826__01.jpg

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Stupid question, but, are you pushing down on the winder shaft to engage the gear on the face and disengage the winder mechanism for the mainspring as this is held in " winder mode " by the spring under the winder shaft ?

I'm still working on a couple of these movements myself so I'm interested in what the issue turns out to be.

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First Pic is the gear train to drive the minute hand, the second is the hour hand gear laid on the front of the movement. I wonder if the gear is pressed down too tight on the shaft and is gripping the front plate ?IMAG0134.jpg

IMAG0135.jpg

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I don't think that the gear is too tight, there is still some end play on the shaft.

So if you push the crown to engage the adjustment train on your movement does the centre wheel turn? if so does the rest of the gear train turn too?

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11 hours ago, alanmason said:

I don't think that the gear is too tight, there is still some end play on the shaft.

So if you push the crown to engage the adjustment train on your movement does the centre wheel turn? if so does the rest of the gear train turn too?

Only the gear train on the face of the movement turns when setting the hands.

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I had a night away from this puzzle and sharpened my screwdrivers instead, now I'm ready for another go. 

If only the gear train under the dial turns when setting the hands what is stopping the centre wheel turning? it is connected to the train by the small cannon pinion and must turn in order for the minute hand to adjust. How does the centre wheel disengage from the main power train when adjusting the time?

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I think this will help you to understand the movement you have and the action of winding and hand setting. It is in three parts. Here is the first. They can be found on youtube.

 

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